Advice on Teeth Whitening Discussion Thread
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brook2jack wrote: »As this is not a money saving discussion anymore perhaps any further comments would be best placed in the discussion time thread.Teethwhiteninguk wrote: »The three month investigation found that some dentists are maximising their profits by exploiting NHS trusts and over charging patients - ‘gaming' as it is known in the industry.Finding an NHS dentist has often been considered a problem for dental patients but Dispatches (tx: Monday 23rd May 2011 at 8pm on Channel 4) has discovered getting the right treatment - at the right price - can be an issue.Dental patients are undergoing unnecessary work because dentists 'overuse' expensive crowns and veneers, experts say.People who undergo such cosmetic treatments are often victims of a 'double mugging', according to Martin Kelleher, consultant in restorative dentistry at King's College London.
'These unfortunate patients are being robbed twice - first of their money and again of their enamel and dentine,' he wrote in the Faculty Dental Journal.
it looks money-related to me..;)0 -
Good point.:)0
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Yes you do have a point. How much does it cost an illegal whitener to provide a treatment, when they have no cross infection controls to carry out, no cross infection equipment to buy and maintain, no cross infection training to do and pay for every year?
How much does an illegal whitener spend on inspections that legally have to be carried out, continuing education on oral and general medicine, crb checks, immunizations for all members of staff? Nothing unlike a dentist.
How much does an illegal whitener have to pay for clinical waste generated to be legally disposed of? How many would you guess have clinical waste disposal?
How much does an illegal whitener pay for legal products obtained from reputable companies for products that are traceable and for which all information is available to the patient for the constituents?
How much does the illegal whitener pay for the course lasting a couple of hours in which time they are "qualified" to assess a person as being orally and generally fit enough to have whitening? (Something a dental therapist with a three year degree in oral health and student debt of thousands is legally not allowed to do).
How much does a legal whitener pay for emergency drugs , kit and compulsory training (necessary for all dental staff)? Not necessary .... tell that to those who have had their asthma made permanently worse and needed hospital treatment after a form of whitening advertised as the only safe ,legal system by one of these self appointed whitening "regulators".
The nhs website puts the situation perfectly , it is illegal , and potentially dangerous for non dentists to whiten teeth http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/dentalhealth/Pages/teeth-whitening.aspx
It is a question of safety , as the public . In general agree. In a survey 75% wanted illegal whiteners prosecuted and this is what is happening now.0 -
Actually thats not gaming. Profits can not be"maximised" like that. Nhs contracts are capped and as such yiu can not make more money as few if any lhb or pcts will award additional uda's and they dont pay for over performance. Firstly can I say gaming is wrong BUT in effect it just means tbe dentist hits their target sooner. Potentially the patient may pay more but that patient fee just comes off the pre determined contract allocation. Its not extra.
The nhs dental service I work in is vastly different to the scare monger stories you identify. I dare say they would not Broadcast a story about it all being hunky dory. It is not perfect and there are bad eggs but a random check on 20 dentists is hardly a fair reflection - it isnt even close to being statistically sugnificant.
Martin kelleher is a man whom I respect greatly and have seen speak many times. Most dentists absolutely agree that more conservative methods should be employed and thats actually the main thrust of his issue. Enamel can not be replaced properly. However again I do not recongnise this lndscape of ripping people off for un necessary veneers. I hsve placed 2 in the last 12 months. Both replacing old ones. One nhs and one private. I have in the kast 12 months worjed at 2 practices and do not know any dentist that has made double figures for units placed. I have worked with 11 dentists andI think my eexperiences are not abnormal.
So my own view is that the stories do not present a balanced view of modern dentistry in the UK.0 -
Actually thats not gaming. Profits can not be"maximised" like that. Nhs contracts are capped and as such yiu can not make more money as few if any lhb or pcts will award additional uda's and they dont pay for over performance. Firstly can I say gaming is wrong BUT in effect it just means tbe dentist hits their target sooner. Potentially the patient may pay more but that patient fee just comes off the pre determined contract allocation. Its not extra.
The nhs dental service I work in is vastly different to the scare monger stories you identify. I dare say they would not Broadcast a story about it all being hunky dory. It is not perfect and there are bad eggs but a random check on 20 dentists is hardly a fair reflection - it isnt even close to being statistically sugnificant.
Martin kelleher is a man whom I respect greatly and have seen speak many times. Most dentists absolutely agree that more conservative methods should be employed and thats actually the main thrust of his issue. Enamel can not be replaced properly. However again I do not recongnise this lndscape of ripping people off for un necessary veneers. I hsve placed 2 in the last 12 months. Both replacing old ones. One nhs and one private. I have in the kast 12 months worjed at 2 practices and do not know any dentist that has made double figures for units placed. I have worked with 11 dentists andI think my eexperiences are not abnormal.
So my own view is that the stories do not present a balanced view of modern dentistry in the UK.
i agree with you welshdent0 -
This not true, I have heard many times that NHS dentists quote the private price and never refer to the NHS cost. A friend of mine recently decided not have a filling as could not afford £105, the actual price should have been £48.00.
This is not acceptable and is fraudulent.0 -
Actually the price may very well not be £48 for your friend. There are different schemes of fees for nhs treatment in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
£48 is the band two charge in England only, elsewhere different charges apply and depending on what exactly needs doing may be more or less than this figure.A root filling, filling and associated x rays for a molar tooth in Scotland on the NHS will come to around this amount so you could very well be advising them wrongly.
Also the NHS charge is for treatment necessary to secure dental health only . So if your friend wanted a filling replaced for cosmetic reasons, or a white filling instead of a silver one at the back then they will be charged a private fee as the nhs is not there to provide cosmetic treatment.0 -
brook2jack wrote: »Yes you do have a point. How much does it cost an illegal whitener to provide a treatment, when they have no cross infection controls to carry out, no cross infection equipment to buy and maintain, no cross infection training to do and pay for every year?
How much does an illegal whitener spend on inspections that legally have to be carried out, continuing education on oral and general medicine, crb checks, immunizations for all members of staff? Nothing unlike a dentist.
How much does an illegal whitener have to pay for clinical waste generated to be legally disposed of? How many would you guess have clinical waste disposal?
How much does an illegal whitener pay for legal products obtained from reputable companies for products that are traceable and for which all information is available to the patient for the constituents?
How much does the illegal whitener pay for the course lasting a couple of hours in which time they are "qualified" to assess a person as being orally and generally fit enough to have whitening? (Something a dental therapist with a three year degree in oral health and student debt of thousands is legally not allowed to do).
How much does a legal whitener pay for emergency drugs , kit and compulsory training (necessary for all dental staff)? Not necessary .... tell that to those who have had their asthma made permanently worse and needed hospital treatment after a form of whitening advertised as the only safe ,legal system by one of these self appointed whitening "regulators".
The nhs website puts the situation perfectly , it is illegal , and potentially dangerous for non dentists to whiten teeth http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/dentalhealth/Pages/teeth-whitening.aspx
It is a question of safety , as the public . In general agree. In a survey 75% wanted illegal whiteners prosecuted and this is what is happening now.
All of this irrelevant.
If a legal operator offers tooth whitening no dental procedures need to be considered at all.
If a beautician delivers electrolysis, there are far more hygiene protocols to be adopted.
Has no-one grasped that legal tooth whitening services do not require a prescription etc.
If you go into a chemist and ask the sales consultant about advice about their tooth whitening products, the sales consultant will say something along the lines, we have x and y products on sale, the contra-indications are listed on the side of the box. If you have any concerns make an appointment with your dentist. End of conversation.
If the person uses a home kit they will dispose of the mouth guard in their own bin.
If a legal tooth whitening company offers their services the client will not be diagnosed/prescribed. The client will self prescribe, the client will not be touched and the client will place the mouth piece into a bag which can be taken home or the sealed bag is disposed of.
This is a cosmetic procedure and you cannot slander all beauticians on the basis of some illegal operators. In the same way it is not fair to disparage all dentists based on the reports provided above.
Hopefully, the rogue traders will eventually disappear and we will achieve safer cosmetic treatments both in the dental surgery and the beauty room.0 -
There is a massive difference between what people can do in their own homes and what they think they are getting when they go to an illegal whiteners.
When they look at advertising which says certified,insured ,expert, professional whitening technician they think they are getting someone who has expert advice, skills and is regulated. Quite often they think they are being treated by a dental professional. They place their trust in someone who they think is very knowledgeable in the field.
What they get is , at best , someone who had done a few hours "training" with another illegal whitener. Their "qualification" is a piece of paper that is not nationally or regionally recognised and the only testing involved is their credit card balance to pay the fee for training.
The vast majority of illegal whiteners do not even know what is in the chemicals they apply to teeth or their concentrations.
This is a real concern if clients , in order to try to circumvent the law, are asked to put trays in their mouth to fabricate rough and ready whitening trays which are then filled with chemicals. Any tray made in this way will be very,very ill fitting. Whitening solution will contact the soft tissues of the gums and drip onto tongue , get swallowed etc. Remember this is a chemical that supposedly will whiten enamel , the hardest substance in the body. What can it potentially do in the mouth, or when swallowed? What will it do if there is any oral health problem ? The crux is an illegal whitener with a couple of hours "training" has no idea who should and shouldn't be treated.0 -
Teethwhiteninguk wrote: »
Has no-one grasped that legal tooth whitening services do not require a prescription etc.
You don't seem to have grasped that there is no such thing as 'legal' tooth whitening if the operator is not a dentist, or GDC registered and working under the direction of a dentist.How to find a dentist.
1. Get recommendations from friends/family/neighbours/etc.
2. Once you have a short-list, VISIT the practices - dont just phone. Go on the pretext of getting a Practice Leaflet.
3. Assess the helpfulness of the staff and the level of the facilities.
4. Only book initial appointment when you find a place you are happy with.0
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