Advice on Teeth Whitening Discussion Thread

Teethwhiteninguk

Yes you are correct.

But you cannot be practicing dentistry if the client self administers and determines their own suitability. In the same when they purchase a product form a chemist.

I am still curious about the tooth brushing argument. Anyone (non-dentist) who cleans or helps whiten someone else's teeth using a brush and whitening toothpaste for example, are they practicing dentistry? Dentists clean and whiten teeth.

Do they have to be assessed for hygiene regulations too?

EU law and TS view:

Anyone who sells, or offers, teeth whitening products to consumers, either in a shop, online or as a treatment at your beauty salon/dental surgery.

There is no distinction between products bought by consumers and self applied and those applied during a course of treatment by a professional.

Cosmetic Product?
Defined by The Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 2008 as referring to

six functions: -
• To clean
• To perfume
• To change the appearance
• To protect
• To keep in good condition
• To correct body odours

The field of application is to:
• The hair system
• The lips
• The nails
• The epidermis
• The external genital organs
• The teeth

You cannot pass on diseases via saliva or blood contact if you do not come in contact with a person.

You cannot harm the public with products that have been determined safe by the EU to use unsupervised.

I do agree with many of the arguments posted above by you and others above. People who are harming others etc. need to be stopped. This includes dentists, doctors hairdressers and beauticians who carry out very intimate and invasive procedures etc.

I am trying to look at this from outside the arena and how the man in the street or the legal profession might think using common sense as well as application of the law.

I am all for helping and protecting the public, this what I do for a living and free of charge in my spare time. The mud throwing by the dentists at the who non dental teeth community industry may be seen as harassment or protectionism by the public.

It is the same as saying all dentists are rubbish, arrogant and money grabbing, which is rubbish. Some dentists harm and defraud their patients, do not have insurance and use illegal products - but this does not stop us trying to find the good ones.

I note the non dental community have withdrawn their counter Facebook page. I am assuming they no longer wish to be part of the slanging match. I think this is the right thing to do.

I am shocked and surprised at some of the comments made on the other page. Some are modest and fair comment, but many are not.

I do not want to by party to any aggressive arguments either. I am simply interested, because of what I do.

brook2jack

Teethwhiteninguk wrote: »

You cannot pass on diseases via saliva or blood contact if you do not come in contact with a person.

Again absolutely wrong.

All you have to do is is to give someone something to put in their mouth that has been in contact with a contaminated surface. E.g. a cheek retractor is put down on a surface that someone who has e.g. hep a has touched and the surface was not adequately disinfected. All equipment that has been in someone's mouth will be contaminated with saliva and potentially infectious that is why it has to go in clinical waste, but what happens to the waste generated by illegal whiteners?

Saliva is exhaled in a fine mist when every anyone breathes through their mouth and this can be a cross infection hazard. Gums that are inflamed bleed easily and this will contaminate any equipment used.

I really hope your ignorance about cross infection is not mirrored by illegal whiteners , but I suspect it is . The dental team spend alot of time,money and training every year keeping up with cross infection control.

dentalsaving

whoo hoooo..

give us a flash of those pearly whites

Toothsmith

I don't understand how you can claim to be an 'independent' advisor who has just looked into this subject - as if you were, for one, I'd expect you to be a lot more accurate with the facts, secondly, I'd expect you to have a bit more understanding of the issues, and thirdly, I'd expect you to be shocked at just what is going on out there in the name of tooth whitening!

Do you honestly believe that there are people out there paying money to go and see someone who WATCHES them put TOOTHPASTE on their own teeth??? :rotfl:

As you rightly say, the only LEGAL products that can be acquired by a member of the public are less that 0.1% peroxide. That would do nothing to whiten teeth. It's pretty much the same as whitening toothpaste.

Illegal whiteners ARE NOT watching people paint their own teeth with toothpaste. They are putting chemicals on teeth that are changing the colour, burning the gums and passing God knows what between the patients and operators because they have zero knowledge of cross infection control.

If you were an independent observer, that should scare you silly. Only an industry plant would be defending it.

Teethwhiteninguk wrote: »

Yes you are correct.

But you cannot be practicing dentistry if the client self administers and determines their own suitability. In the same when they purchase a product form a chemist.

I am still curious about the tooth brushing argument. Anyone (non-dentist) who cleans or helps whiten someone else's teeth using a brush and whitening toothpaste for example, are they practicing dentistry? Dentists clean and whiten teeth.

Do they have to be assessed for hygiene regulations too?

EU law and TS view:

Anyone who sells, or offers, teeth whitening products to consumers, either in a shop, online or as a treatment at your beauty salon/dental surgery.

There is no distinction between products bought by consumers and self applied and those applied during a course of treatment by a professional.

Cosmetic Product?
Defined by The Cosmetic Products (Safety) Regulations 2008 as referring to

six functions: -
• To clean
• To perfume
• To change the appearance
• To protect
• To keep in good condition
• To correct body odours

The field of application is to:
• The hair system
• The lips
• The nails
• The epidermis
• The external genital organs
• The teeth

You cannot pass on diseases via saliva or blood contact if you do not come in contact with a person.

You cannot harm the public with products that have been determined safe by the EU to use unsupervised.

I do agree with many of the arguments posted above by you and others above. People who are harming others etc. need to be stopped. This includes dentists, doctors hairdressers and beauticians who carry out very intimate and invasive procedures etc.

I am trying to look at this from outside the arena and how the man in the street or the legal profession might think using common sense as well as application of the law.

I am all for helping and protecting the public, this what I do for a living and free of charge in my spare time. The mud throwing by the dentists at the who non dental teeth community industry may be seen as harassment or protectionism by the public.

It is the same as saying all dentists are rubbish, arrogant and money grabbing, which is rubbish. Some dentists harm and defraud their patients, do not have insurance and use illegal products - but this does not stop us trying to find the good ones.

I note the non dental community have withdrawn their counter Facebook page. I am assuming they no longer wish to be part of the slanging match. I think this is the right thing to do.

I am shocked and surprised at some of the comments made on the other page. Some are modest and fair comment, but many are not.

I do not want to by party to any aggressive arguments either. I am simply interested, because of what I do.

Teethwhiteninguk

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Or some people cannot read.

I have said all along that people should not be placed at risk by anyone and I would never defend this, but there are, from what I have seen and read legal and appropriate ways for non-dentist to whiten teeth without risk of cross infection or harm and the results are very good too.

Dentist forget they have been illegally whitening teeth for years, but they do not tell their patients, how professionals this? In addition, there are hundreds of dental teeth whitening horror stories and pictures on the net of swollen lips etc. these are as shocking as the ones I have seen on stamp out IW page.

I can see both points of view. Dentists and non-dentists need to be prosecuted if they break the law or harm the public.

I do not advise on beauty or dental matters. I am just genuinely interested.

I can also report Dentists are having problems too.

Lifted from the UKQCS site:

http://www.ukqcs.co.uk/news/551/15/GDC-fails-to-monitor-dentists-breaches/

Chris Dean said: 'For the first four months of 2012, the figures show that 55% of all concluded dentist conduct hearings involved dentists who created risk for their dental patients by not having liability cover or not co-operating with the formal processes.'

He added: 'The rise in the number of dentists who put their patients at risk is bringing the dental profession into disrepute.'

The GDC admitted in March 2012 that it had no idea how its own registered dentists have breached their professional standards in the last seven years.

Chris added: 'How can the GDC be regarded as an authoritative voice in the monitoring and determination of the quality of dental care in the UK? It is failing in its primary function – that of protecting dental patients.'

The law firm has responded to the regulator's failings by creating an awareness campaign calling for changes in the law.

Dentists who put their patients at risk is bringing the dental profession into disrepute.

brook2jack

Quite so . The dental profession is a regulated profession, regulated by law and over 55 legal bodies who can and do inspect dentists and dental surgeries. If a dentist does something to the detriment of a patient they will rightly be punished with tariffs ranging from being struck off and never being able to practice as a dentist anywhere , to prison. It is a legal requirement that they have indemnity so if a patient suffers harm they should not be financially in difficulties. Dentists,nurses ,hygienists and therapists have to undergo training every year to keep up to date and safe.

Or a lorry driver can pay a few hundred pounds, go on a course for a few hours get a piece of paper certifying they are a "whitening technician" , get another piece of paper saying they are insured from an offshore company that may not even exist ,a few more hundred pounds for materials etc and that day set up as a qualified ,insured ,certified whitening technician.

If they really want to look swish they then pay to join a "regulator" of which there are many e.g. iactw, cwtwa, tatwp all of which tout a whitening system which they say is the only legal way of whitening teeth. Then they put the official looking seal on their website and people think they must be safe and good. None of these "regulators" is legally recognised or has any legal powers or regulatory powers. Indeed some of them tout chemicals which are not banned but are normally used for cleaning swimming pools and are dangerous to asthmatics as well as dissolving tooth enamel.

Who should the public trust to assess whether it's safe to put chemicals inside their mouth that are strong enough to change the colour of the strongest substance in the body?

Babtac the beauticians organisation reported in 2008 that there were 40 cases of non dentist whiteners being sued for damaging clients. If you look on stamp out illegal tooth whitening on Facebook there are a multitude of photographs from illegal whiteners own pages showing horrific burns etc

You only have to read the many posts on this forum to see damage done by illegal whiteners. There is a system to prosecute them ,the GDC has made a start , the public can help by reporting them to the GDC who do have powers to prosecute, not just take away a pretty stamp and a set of letters on a website.

welshdent

Most of those doing what is deemed to be illegal whitening do so with "laser" whitening. Its not possible to do this without active handling and or manipulation of the oral tissues thus it is dentistry. Thats an aside to a widely held belief that "laser" (its a lamp NOT a laser) does not work.this technique whitens by dehydration of the enamel. If you want reliable and long lasting tooth whitening then yiu need custom trays provided by the only people allowed to take impressions of teeth - dentists and otger gdc registrants.

Not sure what you are getting at with your comments on dentists which I assume had no indemnity? Those without indemnity are indeed breaking the law and are dealt with accordingly. Why not ask the indemnity companies how many members they have and compare that to the number of gdc registrants (dentist therapist and hygienist). Im sure your sensationalising stats would look less scary. Also as you inadvertently point out, there are systems in place to deal with illegally practicing dentists. The public ARE being protected from dangerous dentists but the same can not be said for illegal whitebers

Teethwhiteninguk

As have said so many times, I agree with many of the points made.

As with every argument or debate there are 2 sides.

The illegal operators may not even know that they are doing anything wrong and I am not sure how they can be reached?

The legal operators, whether they are dentists or non dentists should not be besmirched.

My main concern is that there is fair play, fair comment and the law is not compromised.

Teethwhiteninguk

A balanced view of Dentistry in the UK today.


An undercover investigation by Channel 4's Dispatches into NHS Dentistry reveals that some dentists are misleading patients about their rights to NHS treatment.

The three month investigation found that some dentists are maximising their profits by exploiting NHS trusts and over charging patients - ‘gaming' as it is known in the industry.

Dispatches reporter Sam Lister also interviewed dentists that are critical of the complex way in which NHS dentistry is currently funded with calls for a complete overhaul.

Finding an NHS dentist has often been considered a problem for dental patients but Dispatches (tx: Monday 23rd May 2011 at 8pm on Channel 4) has discovered getting the right treatment - at the right price - can be an issue.

Dispatches sent seven members of the public for an NHS check up at dental surgeries that do both NHS and private treatment to see if dentists are sticking to these rules.
On average our undercover patients were in the dentists chair for 15 minutes.

They went in as NHS patients but six out of seven came out having been recommended to have some treatment privately - the most common being hygiene treatment.

---

Dentists are rushing examinations and overlooking checks, an undercover investigation has revealed.

Bad practice: Dentists are under fire (Picture: PA)
In a study of 20 practices – ten NHS and ten private – a total of 11 visits were rated ‘poor’ or ‘very poor’ overall.

Five visits lasted less than ten minutes, with two dentists spending just five minutes with their new patients.

And on five visits, X-rays were not offered, which should be standard practice for a new patient, unless there are health or other reasons that preclude it, a spokesman for Which? said.

Checks on the soft tissue in the mouth, important to screen for oral cancers, were reported on only five of the visits.

Just three of the 20 dentists were rated ‘good’ and none ‘excellent’. The average length of the NHS visits was 11 minutes, a timescale that experts said was ‘near impossible’ for an adequate initial visit.

Which? is sharing its audiotaped findings with the dental industry’s two regulators – the General Dental Council and the Care Quality Commission.

‘In an industry that has not one but two regulators, this level of incompetence is unacceptable. Patients could be left with permanent problems that could have been easily avoided,’ said Which? executive director Richard Lloyd.

A Department of Health spokesman said: ‘While this survey covers only a very small number of practices, the findings will be considered by the GDC.’

---

Dentists overusing expensive veneers 'after diagnosing imaginary condition'

Dental patients are undergoing unnecessary work because dentists 'overuse' expensive crowns and veneers, experts say.

People who undergo such cosmetic treatments are often victims of a 'double mugging', according to Martin Kelleher, consultant in restorative dentistry at King's College London.

'These unfortunate patients are being robbed twice - first of their money and again of their enamel and dentine,' he wrote in the Faculty Dental Journal.

---

The Truth About Your Dentist

As the government's cuts to the NHS start to bite, Sam Lister, The Times' Health Editor, investigates dentistry, going undercover to reveal how some dentists are misleading patients about their rights to NHS treatment.

The programme exposes dentists who are waiting until patients are lying back in the chair before telling them they must pay hundreds of pounds for private treatment, which should be available on the NHS.

Dispatches also reveals that children's teeth are being neglected under the NHS and that cost-cutting dentists are outsourcing lab work to countries like China where there are little or no checks on safety or quality.

Dodgy Dentists Undercover Filming
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Sky News goes undercover to secretly film dentists who recommend unnecessary work. .

brook2jack

So who do the public want whitening their teeth?

Well the fact that many illegal whiteners claim to be dentists, or dental "technicians" , or claim to work in "clinics" or have websites with staff in dental uniform , would seem to chime in with the survey results that 85% of people think a dentist should do whitening.

Several illegal whiteners "regulators" sites even have photographs of dentists as their site photos , and claim to police both dentists and non dentists!

As this is not a money saving discussion anymore perhaps any further comments would be best placed in the discussion time thread.