Innocents affected by this

lostinrates

PasturesNew wrote: »

I can laugh about it all ... but some people think everybody's had the same chances/opportunities they have. And it's just not the case. There are thousands of people out there now, trying.

I need to have one of those makeover companies do a job on me: go through the CV, identify a career, find out the qualifications needed, get me through them, find me a suit, get my haircut, help me apply for jobs and wheel me into interviews, having coached me so I don't say something stupid (known for that!)

You need to stop worrying about the pants! Everyone says stupid things, its the recovery that counts.

In type certainly you present yourself fantsastically:T -ill you start talking about yourself when you go funnily self depreciating :rolleyes:

No, not everyone had the same chances nor can they. Same educational programmes etc could be arranged, but different minds, different teachers, different choices and desires all would play a part. i don't think 'same' can ever really exist.

I'd employ you PN....;) why not go and have the employment makeover if you think it will help? - Warning, they might make you buy actual new belongings, like new clothes etc that you might need to think abut fitting in your little car when you move

PasturesNew

lostinrates wrote: »

I'd employ you PN....;) why not go and have the employment makeover if you think it will help? - Warning, they might make you buy actual new belongings, like new clothes etc that you might need to think abut fitting in your little car when you move

Thanks. When can I start?

There are no employment makeovers, that'd have to be a TV reality show. Complete with annoying presenters.

As for clothes, they have one rule: all clothes must roll up into a very small space and come out uncreased.

Rules for everything when you're an aspie

Sir_Humphrey

PasturesNew wrote: »

Civil servants can get on because there's structure.

But first you have to get in. And that can be an issue, depending on where you are/what jobs are available still.

And after the first few years of work, my experience has been that at any interview for those type of organisations they pick up "you've never worked for a Govt/NHS/Council/similar department before have you" and it seems to really work against you. If you want into those type of organisations and don't already have family there to help you in later (being related is a big boon) then you can't get in most of the time.

There are three main routes in the Civil Service. Firstly, there are regular job applications for individual posts open to external applicants. Secondly, there are "boards" where a department takes in a number of new recruits at a time. Thirdly, there is the Fast Stream, where people are fast-tracked to middle management over a few years. There are also other ways in for specialists (such as economists, lawyers or statisticians). As a generalist, I will talk about my experience.

I got in to the service out of Oxford University in an AO board (Administrative Officer), and it took me nearly a year after graduating in 2001. The normal entry grade for new graduates is EO, or sometimes HEO for someone very able.

Getting into the Civil Service can be a real pig straight out of University, as they are after proof of having done something, which can be a catch 22 for fresh graduates. I have applied for the fast stream too, and that is very difficult indeed as the benchmark for entry is very high.

The AO post I got gave me chance to do lots of EO type work, so after six months in role, I passed the EO board, and six months after that a suitable EO post came up. Sicne then I have been an EO for over 4 years. This is too long, and is partly down to bad luck, and playing my cards badly (I stayed in a post for far too long in a department with none too good a reputation towards it's staff).

I am now applying for promotion to HEO. Promotion in the Civil Service requires you not only to be good at what you do, but you to also do stuff well usually done by the next grade up.

AO grades are open to just about anyone, and you can work your way up there. Fast Stream requires at least a 2.2 for external applicants, but for internal candidates, you do not need a degree.

Bear in mind that the majority of civil servants are AOs in the regions, and it can be a thankless life, with low pay, and morons s***ing on you the whole time (both managers and the public). My starting salary as an AO in 2002, with London allowance was under 16k. Bear in mind that new entrants no longer receive a final salary pension.

http://www.careers.civil-service.gov.uk gives a good, although not exhaustive vacancy list.

One good thing about the civil service is that being a flash d***head will not usually get you ahead. Every department has it's own culture, so do not assume they are all Sir Humphreys (!)

Overall, in the Civil Service, you get stability and you know where you are, but it can be a slow climb up the greasy pole (slower than in the private sector). However, some people can be promoted very quickly if they are super keen and have good ALL ROUND ability.

Top tips for applications: They will say what they want in the competency framework, so just give what they want. The process is designed to be objective: if you do not have an essential criteria you have next to no chance, but they will not judge on subjective criteria. In any application, say "I" and not "we". Any statement with "we" is likely to be discounted.

dopester

PasturesNew wrote: »

I'd say if you have two people living in the same street in a normal area (not London or a big city), then the one with the degree will be earning at least double what the other one is by the time they're both 30. Say that's an extra £15k/year. So for 30 years (aged 30-60) the degree one will earn the extra £15k (neither of these are high-flyers, just going out, doing a job). 30 x £15k = £450k

All of this might have been true in the past,but I'm not too sure these graduates "winning-out" by the same big measure will continue to apply in the new world.

We're already seeing jobs being cut and increasing competition for fewer positions in high-finance / city / law jobs. We're seeing real evidence of reduced salaries for new graduates in the City. We're seeing those firms still in a position to recruit graduates having the choice of the best candidates.

What do all the other finance/city/law type graduates do for the bigger money? Or graduates in general? Will there be jobs for them? 200,000 jobs are forecast to be lost isn't it? That's a low estimate as I see it.

IT might/probably will continue to prosper for the real top-end stuff so yes, graduates continue to enjoy the advantage there. Construction we know is getting hurt badly.

Eastern Europeans return home in significant numbers leaving good wages still available to electricians and plumbers and the like for fixing problems all the issues homes get?

I'm just thinking a skill with your hands, or engineering, or mechanic repairs (to keep older cars fixed and working - presuming petrol remains partially affordable) might be more in demand income wise than some unemployed graduates with little employment prospects can command in the recession/depression. I could be wrong of course and could be a lot worse than this. I can't think of many sectors that won't get hurt, including big cuts in the public sector.

Catalystpod

When thriftybabe posted this thread I don't expect he/she thought it would become a jobsite. OMG Lostinrates, Dopester, NDG and Pasturesnew - why don't you just have your own forum and then you can blow your own trumpets to each other and not deafen the majority.
Peace be with you.

Annpan

Catalystpod wrote: »

When thriftybabe posted this thread I don't expect he/she thought it would become a jobsite. OMG Lostinrates, Dopester, NDG and Pasturesnew - why don't you just have your own forum and then you can blow your own trumpets to each other and not deafen the majority.
Peace be with you.

Now you are being rude you bad boy. I have a pill that will cure you - just a mild sedative, nothing noxious.
Be good.

moneysaving_pharmacist

steadysaver wrote: »

I think there seems to be a lot of people at uni who really shouldn't be there, other than to make the government statistics look good. Some really worthless degrees out there. But also some very worthwhile ones.

I am fortunate to have studied chemical engineering. Only about 10-15 uni's in the UK run the course, and generally each intake has about 50-70 students. Some courses have 150+. This generally makes us a rare breed and certainly one of my reasons for selecting such a degree,as the market is very buoyant, by no means recession proof, but work should be easier to come by in my chosen profession. Oh and the pay ain't half bad either

I'll agree that there are some people at uni who shouldn't really be there. There were a few people on my course who shouldn't have been there, and this was at Aston which is a good uni with a good pharmacy department. I can't imagine what it would be like at some of the poorer universities.

I'm also fortunate to have studied pharmacy - there just aren't enough pharmacists around and the only time I'll be out of work is if I get struck off. And again, the pay is pretty good.

Kez100

Many businessmen won't have gone anywhere near a classroom after the age of 15. Because dividends and goodwill are not seen as earnings most don't register on the earned income radar but a lot are extremely successful and intuitive.

Let these children out of the box as soon as they can , I say.

lynzpower

There are three main routes in the Civil Service. Firstly, there are regular job applications for individual posts open to external applicants. Secondly, there are "boards" where a department takes in a number of new recruits at a time. Thirdly, there is the Fast Stream, where people are fast-tracked to middle management over a few years. There are also other ways in for specialists (such as economists, lawyers or statisticians). As a generalist, I will talk about my experience.

I got in to the service out of Oxford University in an AO board (Administrative Officer), and it took me nearly a year after graduating in 2001. The normal entry grade for new graduates is EO, or sometimes HEO for someone very able.

Getting into the Civil Service can be a real pig straight out of University, as they are after proof of having done something, which can be a catch 22 for fresh graduates. I have applied for the fast stream too, and that is very difficult indeed as the benchmark for entry is very high.

The AO post I got gave me chance to do lots of EO type work, so after six months in role, I passed the EO board, and six months after that a suitable EO post came up. Sicne then I have been an EO for over 4 years. This is too long, and is partly down to bad luck, and playing my cards badly (I stayed in a post for far too long in a department with none too good a reputation towards it's staff).

Make that 4! Me & Oh have all worked as AO & EO grades in eg home office, foriegn office, ofsted, local government, DEFRA and a couple of others I cant remember. No particularly long interviewing process or anything- we just temped. Although we are in london , i expect that makes a difference?

Anybody wants to find a way in - there it is. Adecco London Bridge and Most of the agencies on Victoria Street SW1 do government jobs.

Its the salaries in AO jobs that can be crap, I was getting 8.50 an hour at ofsted A0 but they wanted me to go perm, starting at 12k. other AO grades were paying more like 16k. 16 was livable -12 would bearely cover the rent & travel so I turned it down!

PasturesNew

lynzpower wrote: »

Make that 4! Me & Oh have all worked as AO & EO grades in eg home office, foriegn office, ofsted, local government, DEFRA and a couple of others I cant remember. No particularly long interviewing process or anything- we just temped. Although we are in london , i expect that makes a difference?

Only a majorly huge one.

lynzpower wrote: »

Anybody wants to find a way in - there it is. Adecco London Bridge and Most of the agencies on Victoria Street SW1 do government jobs.

Its the salaries in AO jobs that can be crap, I was getting 8.50 an hour at ofsted A0 but they wanted me to go perm, starting at 12k. other AO grades were paying more like 16k. 16 was livable -12 would bearely cover the rent & travel so I turned it down!

I just looked at the link provided by SirH above, but for jobs without a degree they just said "look in the local papers".

I looked for Council etc jobs when I was in Cornwall. (I don't know if the council is anything to do with Civil Service). There the jobs were 20-30 miles away and the only way in was temping, at minimum wage. I had a mortgage and couldn't pay the mortgage on minimum wage never mind do the nearly 1000 miles a month driving to/from the job.

Entry level jobs are for the young starting out or people in a couple I think.