AST - ultimatum - sign up or leave

scrummy_mummy_2

You shouldn't have to pay £25 for the agreement to become periodic...it automatically lapses into a periodic once the fixed term expires under the fixed term's main terms....it is not a new contract but a continuation of the original one.
Don't pay them £25!!

Notlob

Considering the LA has served a Section 21, which cannot be retracted, a new tenancy agreement comes into play if the tenants remain in the property, and if the LA is saying that it will continue as a periodic, then I suspect it would be a contractual periodic. If this is the case, the LA will likely be drawing up a new agreement. Maybe this is what the £25 is for!

franklee

theDimsumKid wrote: »

Ok so we've had a chat with the letting agents. By a "new agreement" they actually mean it will go onto a periodic term tennancy (i.e. rolling). I think it was a case of them being jokers!

So thanks for all your help - I think we'll pay up the £25 as its a relatively small price to pay for the flexibility (and not having the hassle to move).

LOL, their origional letter was clear as mud then

Now everything is cleared up it's still worth dropping them a line to ask for the S21 to be withdrawn if it isn't clear they've done that.

scrummy_mummy_2

Notlob wrote: »

Considering the LA has served a Section 21, which cannot be retracted, a new tenancy agreement comes into play if the tenants remain in the property, and if the LA is saying that it will continue as a periodic, then I suspect it would be a contractual periodic. If this is the case, the LA will likely be drawing up a new agreement. Maybe this is what the £25 is for!

Apart from a small difference in how the periodic agreement has been created either by direct LL agreement or not)...there is no difference in the creation of a contractual or statutory periodic tenancy and so a new agreement is NOT created. Both forms of periodic agreement continue as per the main terms of the original fixed term agreement.

The S21 cannot be retracted, but DOES NOT HAVE TO BE enacted. It does not have an expiry date and so, as long as it is served and the terms of the ORIGINAL tenancy still apply, (ie: the tenancy is now either contractual or statutory), the LL can apply to the courts for possession at any point. (For example, if you are trying to not have to evict your tenant and working with them month to month to avoid it, but then have to take action say 6 months into a statutory periodic)
I have tested this in court and won.
For ref: http://www.landlords-uk.net/guide_Landlord_Rent.asp

Notlob

scrummy mummy

If the tenancy continues as a contractual periodic then by definition, both parties have entered into a new agreement, that is why it is called a "contractual" it is a contract. As such, the Section 21 is void. A Statutory periodic is where the tenancy continues without agreement and the section 21 will still be in force until a new agreement has been agreed or the tenancy terminates.

If you click on the link you provided it will confirm this.

franklee

scrummy_mummy wrote: »

The S21 cannot be retracted, but DOES NOT HAVE TO BE enacted. It does not have an expiry date and so, as long as it is served and the terms of the ORIGINAL tenancy still apply, (ie: the tenancy is now either contractual or statutory), the LL can apply to the courts for possession at any point.

Yes it is important that the OP realises this (many tenants don't). OP read this carefully, unless you get something done about the S21 (retraction in writing would do me as it would allow you to show the LL agreed NOT to action the S21 or a new contract as Notlob says) then the LL can apply to the courts for possession at any point in the future. Unless the S21 is invalid for any reason of course.

In other words if you just go into a statuary periodic tenancy you will have lost your right to two months notice. (Sword of Damocles as it's nicknamed). On the other hand if you trust the LL/agent to forget about the S21 then leave it be and you will have flexibility on when you can leave, you will be able to leave at any point in future (so long as it's after the end of the fixed term) without giving notice. Which may be quite handy

scrummy_mummy_2

Notlob wrote: »

scrummy mummy

If the tenancy continues as a contractual periodic then by definition, both parties have entered into a new agreement, that is why it is called a "contractual" it is a contract. As such, the Section 21 is void. A Statutory periodic is where the tenancy continues without agreement and the section 21 will still be in force until a new agreement has been agreed or the tenancy terminates.

If you click on the link you provided it will confirm this.

You are incorrect.
A statutory periodic agreement is the same as a contractual periodic (it is a different terminology use) and are covered by the terms of the main fixed term AST.
I have just rung the National landlords' Association to verify this information.

Notlob

scrummy_mummy wrote: »

You are incorrect.
A statutory periodic agreement is the same as a contractual periodic (it is a different terminology use) and are covered by the terms of the main fixed term AST.
I have just rung the National landlords' Association to verify this information.

I agree that the original terms still apply in a contractual periodic if no new/changed terms have been agreed. However, the point you raised was that a section 21 would still be in force in the event that the tenancy continued as a contractual tenancy. You quoted

It does not have an expiry date and so, as long as it is served and the terms of the ORIGINAL tenancy still apply, (ie: the tenancy is now either contractual or statutory)

In an earlier post you provided the following link:-

http://www.landlords-uk.net/guide_Landlord_Rent.asp

If you read it again you will find the following:- If both the landlord and the tenant agree just to carry on the tenancy from one rent period to the next then a contractual periodic tenancy is created..

I therefore contend that as both parties have agreed to continue the tenancy under a contractual periodic, a new section 21 needs to be issued. Whereas, a statutory periodic just means that neither party did anything, hence no agreement and the original section 21 is valid.

franklee

Notlob wrote: »

I therefore contend that as both parties have agreed to continue the tenancy under a contractual periodic, a new section 21 needs to be issued. Whereas, a statutory periodic just means that neither party did anything, hence no agreement and the original section 21 is valid.

I do think that if the LL agrees to the tenant remaining then the S21 becomes invalid but that's not universally agreed upon here, especially by landlords.

scrummy mummy, any chance you can ring the National landlords' Association to clarify this point? It would be most useful.

prudryden

A contractual periodic to me means it has a starting and an ending date, but either party can issue notice (LL -2mo, T-1/2mo) at any time during the period. The tenant is not held liable to the ending date.

I sort of do this as a memorandum to the original AST which we both sign and agree that all points in the original AST are still valid except that the tenants are now free to leave with 2mo notice at any time. The memorandum is good for a year at which time we can do another one. It also allows for rent increase should we agree.