Neighour's extension on my land

littleoldme_2

can i ask if your extension is on the location plan ?
how wide is your extension and how far away from the fence it is .
its just they look nearly the same

VictorMeldew

My extension is not on the plans for some reason. The extension was already built when I bought the house seven and a half years ago, so I'm not sure how long it's been there.

hethmar

Dont worry Vic, the plans are not accurate enough to measure in that way - in fact the Land Registry themselves turned down our application for them to do so, saying that the measurements as on their plans can be out by at least 6 ft. If we are talking about plans the neighbour drew up, then again, its not something to be relied on. If the fence has been in the wrong place anyway for 12 years or more I believe adverse possession of the land is still possible.

guppy

hethmar wrote: »

Dont worry Vic, the plans are not accurate enough to measure in that way - in fact the Land Registry themselves turned down our application for them to do so, saying that the measurements as on their plans can be out by at least 6 ft. If we are talking about plans the neighbour drew up, then again, its not something to be relied on. If the fence has been in the wrong place anyway for 12 years or more I believe adverse possession of the land is still possible.

This is true. The situation on the ground is more definitive than the plans, which are only indicative. The wording in the deeds may describe the boundaries too.

Since he bought the house with the fence already in position, its going to be hard for him to argue about it now. I wonder if he has intentionally crossed your boundary because he thinks he's in the right though, and is trying to reclaim the kink?

blueboy2001

I'm a planning professional so I'll give you my opinion.

The development is obviously not in accordance with the plans on the website. However, it appears to me like the planning officer has accepted an amendment at some stage (on the basis of his emails) for the pitched roof over the single storey rear extension. That amendment may have also included an increase in the footprint of the single storey extension. You therefore need to view the approved plans which will be held by the Council to see if it is in accordance with them. However, if the planning officer says that the development is in accordance with them then I can see no reason for him/her to lie to you about that.

Even if the extra footprint of the extension is not on the approved plans, there is the issue of is it expediant for the planning authority to pursue it. In my opinion it isn't because it is not adversely affecting your amenties. Resource issues often come into play here - enforcement is always under-resourced in Councils and as such they have to priortise the more urgent matters. The authority I work for do not pursue anything beyond sending a letter to the developer requesting a minor amendment or new application for any minor deviations from an approved plan if we would grant permission for it anyway.

planning_officer may be interested to know authority for enforcement action is delegated to the Chief Planning Officer in this case, who delegates it to the DC Manager. Getting authority from a committee must surely delay things that require a fast response, eg. defacing listed buildings etc?

In my opinion there are no planning issues with the works done by your neighbour that would be sufficient for you to challenge the decision of the council. Starting work before an application is decided is not uncommon. If I were you I'd give up the planning angle because I really don't think it will get you anywhere.

I don't know much about the legalities of boundary disputes, but every one I've come across has been very costly, protracted and there is never a winner other than the surveyor and legal people who bank a nice fee. A boundary such as yours will be almost impossible to define to a level of accuracy to determine whether he the extension crosses the boundary or is right on it. The only sources of information to assist will be the original plans for the houses which will probably have been microfilmed if a copy exists at all which are nigh on useless for scaling accurately from and anything held by the Land Registry, which again is not accurate. Think very long and hard before spending any money on this, because the chances of getting what you want, ie. the extension knocked down, are slim and even if you do eventually win, chances are it will be years down the line.

VictorMeldew

You've given me a lot to think about there Blueboy. I know that I'm flogging a dead horse in pursuing the council but I find it really annoying that they've just passed the application without following the correct procedure.

I don't think that the planning officer at the council has any amendment from my neighbour showing the extra extension. I phoned him and told him about the extra extension on the the day before the application was passed and he knew nothing about it. Even so, he still passed the application the following day. I will ask specifically about this in my following email to him but it's strange that he hasn't mentioned it so far.

Also, I'm annoyed with the council as they appear to have passed the application without the required diagrams (please correct me if I'm wrong here). There is nowhere on the plans which shows how the extension relates to the boundaries, and this led to a significant delay in me realising that it was on my land.

I take your point about boundary disputes being costly and time-consuming and this really does worry me. My chartered surveyor said that it would be unusual for them to last more than two years, but from reading other people's posts on here I'm beginning to doubt this.

Hopefully I'll know how strong or weak a position I'm in after the surveyor comes out on Tuesday, I'll decide then how far I can sensibly pursue this. It seems to me that even without the land registry diagrams, he has crossed the line of my fence which (I think) has been there for more than 12 years.

The legal process relating to this all seems backwards to me - why shoud I have to prove that it's my land when it's on my side of the fence. The onus should be on him to prove otherwise.

planning_officer

BlueBoy, I agree with everything you say - although the amendment that the planning officer accepted appears to only relate to the removal of the balcony over the single storey element and its replacement with a hipped roof (although I note that the amended plans have not been scanned onto the council's website, as they all still show the balcony).

Regarding the authorisation of enforcement action, different authorities do things in different ways - at my authority, like I said earlier, enforcement action is authorised by the planning committee - with the exception of emergency action, like temporary stop notices, which are delegated to be authorised and served much more quickly. In any event, and as I'm sure you know, defacing a listed building is slightly more serious as it's a criminal offence, unlike undertaking building works without planning permission, which of course isn't.

You're right in respect of the unauthorised building works not being expedient (in terms of PPG18) to enforce. However, for the LPA to make no attempt to seek a retrospective planning application in my view sends out completely the wrong idea to builders/developers - it basically says that as long as an unauthorised development has no planning implications, we won't bother taking any action whatsoever. I can only comment for my LPA, but our enforcement dept is not under resourced (I spent several years doing it myself!) and we pursue everything in terms of asking for retrospective applications or amendments, which sends out the right idea to developers - they know that if they try and get away with something or don't adhere to approved plans, they will be asked to apply for permission again. If this particular case occurred at my authority, we would seek a retrospective application from the owner. I would also add, perhaps controversially, that I'm surprised the 2 storey extension was passed in the first place, being so close to the boundary - although, as Victor has highlighted, as the application was seemingly registered without a site plan, or any kind of plan showing the extension in relation to the site boundaries, perhaps the LPA didn't realise it would be so close.

Whilst PPG18 does say that a planning application should not be sought solely to regularise otherwise acceptable development, there has to be a balance between not taking any action at all and seeking either a retrospective application, or, as you say, a minor amendment.

However, as mentioned before, the planning officer is wrong to assert that the single storey extension is PD - from the photos, it's clearly not even substantially complete, therefore it cannot be PD, mindful of the presence of the 2 storey extension and indeed the existing rear single storey projection, which presumably is also an addition to the original dwelling.

Mindful of all of the above, whilst I agree that the outcome is the same - i.e. there's not much Victor can do from a planning angle, I do consider that the planning officer from his LPA could have explained it better to him, without the inconsistences and giving more emphasis to the fact that they do not consider it expedient to take any action. Plus, of course, the fact that the application appears to have been registered without a site plan, which is pretty slack.

greenface

I think we have established that there is a font of knowledge on this thread spending more time care and effort than the whole of the liverpool planning department which although not giving the answer Victor is hoping for is great advice from people that know what the legal angles are.
I for one would thank you all for teaching me new areas of the planning protocol. Are there ways Victor could appoach this and a few suggestions as to go about it (can you build right up to your line or do you need to have a 200mm space ?)(if you can build right upto your border would the footings be in your land ?)

VictorMeldew

I have a bit more info - not sure what difference this will make though. I've found out through a distant family member who works for the land registry that my house is leasehold (peppercorn rent - I'd forgotten about this) and my neighbour's is freehold.

I think this means that the land I'm on isn't technically mine - does this mean that if there is a boundary dispute when I sell, it's up to the council to put right?

Also, my neighbour's land was leasehold up until 1984 when it was bought by the occupier at the time, and became freehold. Hopefully this means that there will have been decent plans of the land drawn up in 1984 for that conveyance that could be used as eveidence.

lostinrates

VictorMeldew wrote: »

that my house is leasehold (peppercorn rent - I'd forgotten about this) .

:eek: :eek:

I'm a bit amazed that anyone could foget such a vital thing :eek: :eek: