Fire Regulations Communal Hallway

Issy01

Does anyone know what the fire regulations/safety requirements are for a communal hallway in a property which is a victorian property and was converted into 4 flats years ago. These are self contained flats therefore not a HMO.

I always thought that there weren't legally any but the freeholder/landlord has a duty of care and for that reason there should at least be a fire alarm system etc.

Could anyone confirm this for me and if not do you know where I could find out.
Many Thanks

clutton_2

why not ask your local fire department to come round and give you a free fire safety inspection ?

mattgod69

Note that the property may still classed as an HMO even though they are self contained flats. It would be if say less than two thirds of the flats are owner occupied. You may also get flats being HMOs in their own right.

The extent of work needed will vary with individual circumstances, i.e. size of building, height, no of units, no of escape stairs etc. The work would have needed building regulation approval 4 years ago and if this is the case then further works now should not be necessary without investigation I cant recall the exact amount of time that no further works can be requested). Whilst there may not be a fire alarm, there will almost definately be smoke detectors in the flats and the common parts.

You really need to consult the services of a Chartered Surveyor who can assess the individual circumstances.... (see rics.org for help finding one and if its in the south east i can assist!)

tbs624

The Housing Act 2004 introduced a new definition of an HMO.

“a house or flat occupied by three or more people forming two or more households and sharing amenities”, e.g. kitchen & bathroom facilities.

It also covers :

• properties converted into self contained flats that do not meet the requirements of the 1991 Building Regulations and whereat least one third of those flats are let on short-term tenancies, or

• houses occupied by 3 or more people, forming 2 or more households in a converted building that is not entirely self contained.

You say that the property was converted into flats just 4 years ago, in which case it should comply with the 1991 Building Regs and would not AFAIAA fall under HMO rules.

You really do not need to employ a chartered surveyor. You can, as Clutton says, get the Fire Safety Officer out, and you can also contact the Private Sector Team at the local Council’s Housing Dept for advice on whether the property has been/should have been registered (the latter can also liaise with the buildings control dept to check whether all appropriate consents were applied for when the property was converted). Both/either of these routes will cost you nowt.


Matt if you're offering further advice freely, in the spirit of the MSEers, then great but if you're "touting" for paid business, there's a time and a place......

mattgod69

tbs

You misunderstood me. I did not say you need to employ the services of a Chartered Surveyor, but in instances like this, the fire service or indeed the local authority are not always best placed to offer the best (or indeed correct) inpartial advice, although I acknowledge that they are useful in many circumstances. They can, although I do generalise and forgive me for that, side with caution and whilst this may be sensible, this could have unnecessary finanical implications.

I come accoss people every day who request free advice which invarably ends costing more or proving incorrect or costly or both. My point was Chartered Surveyors are professionally qualified and can offer clear advice without any bias (although they will of course charge a fee).

I am all for money saving, (indeed I am an avid saver myself) but I pride myself on being able to assist people and save them money. I am not touting for work, I do not need to, but i was just being honest and i still feel that in this case it is probably the correct advice, although I agree it would be silly not to try the free angles in the first instance.

The old saying that something that is free is not worth having and nothing in life is free is im afraid more often than not true when it comes to professional services.

Matt

TJ27

mattgod69 wrote: »

but in instances like this, the fire service or indeed the local authority are not always best placed to offer the best (or indeed correct) inpartial advice,

Matt I think you'll find that in circumstances such as this it will either be the fire service or the council who are the enforcing authority. What is it that makes you think they may not be best placed to offer (free) advice on how to comply with their own rules?

Doozergirl

I don't think a freeholder does have a duty of care to install fire alarms in the way that a BTL landlord might.

I'm also understanding that the property as converted to 4 flats, years ago. Not that the building was converted into flats 4 years ago!

If it is definately not an HMO then I am not aware of any building regulations that makes you do things to meet current regs unless you are specifically making changes that directly affect a certain area making new regs apply. It would be impossible to police.

If you are concerned about your safety, then the fire brigade will provide you with free smoke detectors which you can put in the halls and test regularly.

Bungarm2001

Issy01 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the fire regulations/safety requirements are for a communal hallway in a property which is a victorian property and was converted into 4 flats years ago. These are self contained flats therefore not a HMO.

....errr...guys...I think you are not reading this right...? or is it me....

paintpot

Bungarm2001 wrote: »

....errr...guys...I think you are not reading this right...? or is it me....

That's how I read it too Bungarm

I am no expert on Hmo's and yours might not be a HMO but it is quite likely that that it is. The answer to that will determine what is required. I am currently refuburing two victorian house also converted into 4 self contained flats per house. It is categorised as a HMO and has a fire alarm system (as well as fire doors, emergency lighting etc). I have had to do work to the fire alarms. One was not working at all so it had a new panel and this was called a "repair". The reason I highlight that it was a "repair" is because if you are repairing an existing system the current regulations do not apply i.e if you are installing a brand new system then you have to comply with the current regs. Mine has smoke detectors in each flat and in the communal hallways and break glass points at all exits etc. The property I am working on I believe was converted to flats in the late 80's or early 90's.

Are you a landlord/tenant? I am trying to establish your purpose for asking so that others might be able to advise you more specifically. Your local council will have details of all the regulations required for a HMO if indeed it is and they would be my first port of call.

HTH

prudryden

HMO OR NOT
Depends on the council. I have an Edwardian property (victorian style) converted into 3 flats. My council sent me a letter (at my request) that it is NOT an HMO. However, should any of the flats change to having 3 unrelated households living in any of the flats, then I should re-contact them.
As Clutton suggested, the fire department did a free visit and installed free smoke alarms for me. The communal area already had a smoke alarm which they tested and said it was fine.

mattgod69

TJ27 wrote: »

Matt I think you'll find that in circumstances such as this it will either be the fire service or the council who are the enforcing authority. What is it that makes you think they may not be best placed to offer (free) advice on how to comply with their own rules?

They can give good advice. I did say may not be because I have come accoss incidents when they have recommended works which whilst a very good idea and arguably should be implimented, they do not have to be done under the legislation..... strictly speaking.

If the property was converted legally four years ago then it will have building regulations approval which will mean that it aleady has fire detection and warning. The extent of the system will depend on the house circumstances. If it is an HMO the Environmental Health department can insist on retrospective upgrade works, but it is normally done only when there is a problem (i.e. fire) as all local authorities have so many properties with problems. You would be very unlucky if any shortcomings (assuming there are some) are identified and needed to be upgraded in such a recent conversion.

Building Regulations work cannot be retrospectively applied so if the work had approval four years ago and the standards changed, no further works would be necessary unless there are works being carried out etc that are changing or worsening the existing situation. Standards under the Housing Act 2004 are different and can be retrospectively applied although as stated its unlikely with such a recent conversion.

The property will probably have stand alone smoke detection within each dwelling. In addition there should be a common parts alarm which also includes heat detection within each flat so all the units are notified if there is a problem in any of the flats.