Maintenance advice please?

mumoftwins

Hi,

I got divorced 2.5 years ago from the father of my 11 yr old twins. He has a very good job earning good money plus a big bonus. The solicitors negotiated maintenance for the usual 20% of his take home pay plus the court agreed that he should pay for reasonable costs for their out of school activities and for their school uniform.

A year ago I went to the CSA to help negotiate an increase as things financially were very tough for the children and I. I had had a car accident which has left me with trochanteric bursitis and has also affected my back meaning that I find it difficult to walk and am constantly in pain. I am being treated for this albeit slowly due to the insurance company taking their time to arrange treatment. I lost my job due to not being able to go into work because of this. I have now applied for DLA and HB (I live in rented accomodation) and am in receipt of CTC and Child Benefit. The CSA managed an increase of £94 per month but weren't able to get details of any bonus he had received.

Anyway, now he is refusing to pay any out of school activities. When we first moved here the children went to after school clubs which were free but now as they get older they want to join things such as Scouts and the gym, so I have asked their father if he would cover the costs of the weekly Scout fees and monthly gym costs - scouts is approx £4.25 a week and only my son wishes to join, they both would like to go to the gym regularly and this would £30 a month for the 2 of them.

I have not asked for an increase in the maintenance this year as the industry he is in is affected by the 'Credit Crunch' and although he will have had a pay rise it would no doubt be a small one.

Now, I don't want any bitter and twisted comments please as all I am trying to do is find out how I stand here - the Court Order said he should pay for 'reasonable' out of school activities and uniforms and what I would like to know is by going to the CSA last year to negotiate a monthly increase will that have affected covering the costs of OoS activities and uniform?

The cost of living affects everyone and I know it has hit myself and the children hard, but as he has no rent or mortgage to pay am I being unreasonable here please?

ampersand

Well done on a sensible and balanced post, mot - my own parallel situ. is far too long ago to be of use, but there were dubious 'tactics'. He wrote himself off on paper, to become 'employee' of wealthy new wife, having happily used up my inheritance.
I do think the twins' own request must be made, as said at weekend, if only to show attitude at a later Court Hearing.
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If any new readers don't yet 'know' mot(read her current and earlier Threads), please be aware that Bankruptcy is in preparation.

hobo28

Reasonable really depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on.

You have your very valid reasons and its obvious you want whats best for you and your kids.

On the other hand, he was paying the amount required of him by the CSA, now from his point of view another £94 a month. He will see that as grossly unfair. The fact you were in an accident and are suffering is a shame but he will be probably thinking that he should not have to foot the bill.

In short I don't think you are being unreasonable but I can also see his point of view. Now you are split, your financial problems are seperate from his. Whether he pays for out of school activities should really be up to him. I suppose in theory you could take him to court to decide if the cost of scouts and the gym is a "reasonable" out of school activity but its not worth it really is it?

mumoftwins

Thanks hobo,

What I suppose I really want to know is does the Court Order for the Out of School activities still stand now that I have been to the CSA for a one off increase of payment? I must add that the monthly maintenance is paid to me directly by him and we have no dealings with the CSA now.

floss2

hobo28 wrote: »

Now you are split, your financial problems are seperate from his. Whether he pays for out of school activities should really be up to him.

Not when your "problems" include court-agreed obligations to his children. The OP is not asking for him to help her personal financial situation, just for what was agreed previously - probably when the OP was able to cover those costs herself so he was not required to. I assume that the costs could be paid directly by him, thus not causing any OR problems?

hobo28 wrote: »

Whether he pays for out of school activities should really be up to him.

I think this is a matter for the court to clarify - and maybe for a solicitors letter to remind him of his obligations as defined by the court.

Perhaps as Ampersand suggests, the children can raise this with him? I found that to be the better route to my ex-husband's wallet

Floss x

hobo28

Sorry I don't think i explained what I meant very well.

mumoftwins wrote:

What I suppose I really want to know is does the Court Order for the Out of School activities still stand now that I have been to the CSA for a one off increase of payment?

Yes, the court order still stands. He is still legally obliged to pay "reasonable" costs for out of school activities. Nothing from that point of view has changed.

My point is that "reasonable" is a very grey area. Lets for arguments wind things on a few years and the twins want to try stock car racing or go for their private pilots license. Would you expect your ex to have to pay for those? Surely he also has a say as to what is "reasonable".

The cost of going to the gym & scouts is of course much lower. However he at the moment doesn't think it is reasonable given his increased payments. Now you could of course ask a court to rule on this and i'd think you'd probably even win but the question is, is it worth the risk? He's already pushing back on paying for hobbies because of the extra money. Take him to court over this and is there a serious risk that he'll stop paying altogether? Given the current circumstances that I think would make things worse. Sure, you can go to the CSA again but thats additional pain and they aren't always effective.

I like Ampersand's suggestion of the kids asking. If he says no, personally I'd let it drop. Whilst its not nice seeing the kids not being able to do things they would like, its also part of life's lessons to learn that they don't always get to do what they want.

mumoftwins

floss2 wrote: »

Not when your "problems" include court-agreed obligations to his children. The OP is not asking for him to help her personal financial situation, just for what was agreed previously - probably when the OP was able to cover those costs herself so he was not required to. I assume that the costs could be paid directly by him, thus not causing any OR problems?




I think this is a matter for the court to clarify - and maybe for a solicitors letter to remind him of his obligations as defined by the court.

Perhaps as Ampersand suggests, the children can raise this with him? I found that to be the better route to my ex-husband's wallet

Floss x

Hi Floss!

Good to hear from you again. You are quite right in that when I was working things were easier for me to pay for swimming or such like, now it is all very different .

Sorry I don't think i explained what I meant very well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mumoftwins
What I suppose I really want to know is does the Court Order for the Out of School activities still stand now that I have been to the CSA for a one off increase of payment?


Quote posted by hobo28
"Yes, the court order still stands. He is still legally obliged to pay "reasonable" costs for out of school activities. Nothing from that point of view has changed.

My point is that "reasonable" is a very grey area. Lets for arguments wind things on a few years and the twins want to try stock car racing or go for their private pilots license. Would you expect your ex to have to pay for those? Surely he also has a say as to what is "reasonable".

The cost of going to the gym & scouts is of course much lower. However he at the moment doesn't think it is reasonable given his increased payments. Now you could of course ask a court to rule on this and i'd think you'd probably even win but the question is, is it worth the risk? He's already pushing back on paying for hobbies because of the extra money. Take him to court over this and is there a serious risk that he'll stop paying altogether? Given the current circumstances that I think would make things worse. Sure, you can go to the CSA again but thats additional pain and they aren't always effective.

I like Ampersand's suggestion of the kids asking. If he says no, personally I'd let it drop. Whilst its not nice seeing the kids not being able to do things they would like, its also part of life's lessons to learn that they don't always get to do what they want."




Thanks again hobo, and I understand what you say about the more expensive hobbies as they get older but that's where they would need to have a part-time job to fund these themselves, wouldn't you agree? I don't think it is unreasonable for a child to be allowed to attend Scouts (educational, team building, personality shaping) or to go to the gym (health and confidence building) its not as they want to do dance classes twice a week with all the costume costs that go with that or horse riding lessons.

It's good to know that the Court Order still stands - how best do you think I should approach this bearing in mind he is not a 'reasonable' man and now has a new woman 'behind' him? The twins are not keen to ask him - I think they are afraid of what he may say!

ampersand

This, mot, already gives the Court a pointer, but it would be wise nonetheless to have him seen to refuse these Community spirit, healthy body/healthy mind activities, thus revealing a particular attitude for any Court.
I was about to reply as you have to Hobo, re: part-time jobs as the years' passing makes this likely.
The other idea is not for post, but we have discussed it and I feel its time is near and appropriate and that you are ready for it.
We'll speak over w/e - not Sunday, you'll have a lovely time with wol(please say Hello for me).
I'm assuming twins are away this w/e?

mumoftwins

Toots wrote: »

Court orders are all very well but unfortunately if someone decides not to keep to the order then all the other party can really do is to go back to the courts and this will mean incurring costs (although obviously you could ask that an order be made for him to incur the costs). It might be worth doing though to get a judge to make a ruling on the wishy washy area of what is 'reasonable'.

I know of someone who just keeps going back, their partner gets a telling off and they then agree to abide by the court order....and immediately ignore it again. Hopefully your ex won't do this though.

It is best if possible to try and agree these things between you so it could well be worth your children asking their dad if he will pay. I must admit that I am surprised at 11 year olds being allowed to go to a gym as my gym only accepts over 16s so I thought this might be a general ruling. My personal opinion is that the children could perhaps do another type of activity besides attending a gym that would be good for their health such as playing football or cricket or tennis (probably much better for them in terms of developing a team spirit and mixing with a variety of people).

Good luck!

Thanks Toots,

This is a junior gym specifically for 10 -16 yr olds with the equipment at the right size and weights etc.

DS would like to do rugby but he is away every other weekend with his father so a bit difficult for the club.

As I said I have asked the twins to speak to their father about this but they are afraid of his reaction so I must deal with this on their behalf. I am happy for him to pay the fees directly to the clubs.

Ampersand, the twins are chez moi this weekend and with their father next weekend.