Virgin Trains Online Rip-off and Scam

2robbo

I am writing to bring to attention VirginTrains.co.uk unfair and unclear terms, the way they are ripping off the average online UK consumer, and to ask advise on what action I should take next in claiming a full refund.

In March 2008 I booked in advance to go from London to Birmingham on a same day return journey. I used Virgin Trains' online booking services for the first time. The money I paid to Virgin Trains was £41.50 + £19.50 + £1 (for travel insurance) = £62.

Here is a screenshot of the money I paid to Virgin Trains.
When the ordering process was finished I was prompted by their website to make a printout of the journey details, which I did. (I have since lost that print out, so I have gone through the whole process of booking again online in order to show you my point below, I have no intention of travelling again with Virgin Trains.)

So, I read this printout, which stated that I could pickup my ticket from a FastTicket machine at LONDON KINGS CROSS and gave me a reference number to enable me to collect my tickets. I did not think that I needed anything else to pick up my tickets. On the day of travel I went to pick up my tickets and was unable to do so because I did not brought along the same card that I used to buy the tickets online with. (I was subsequently told that this was in order to combat fraud etc).

Now, my point is that I was not sufficiently made aware of the fact that I needed to bring along the same card that I used to make the online order with, (as can be seen on the screenshot below of another online order printout which I have been forced to do to in order to bring this to your attention):

Virgin Trains Order Confirmation Screenshot

A key feature of be being able to complete this order is the FastTicket Reference number and taking along the credit or debit card used to make the order. I was made to believe by Virgin Trains, by the action of them prompting me to print a printout of the transaction that the printout contained all relevant details needed to complete the transaction.
On the confirmation page it states:

"We will send you a booking confirmation by email, but recommend that you also print this page for your records."

But on the printout there is no mention of the fact that one needs to take along the credit or debit card used to make the online order.

So, as I was not able to use the tickets I had bought in advance I had to buy a return ticket from a station ticket office, which cost me £29.50, which is less than half the price that I had paid to Virgin Trains in advanced online booking! Had I been able to pick up the tickets which I bought in advance online then I would have been none-the-wiser as to how Virgin Trains is ripping off online advanced booking users.

screenshots of Chiltern Trains tickets cost for same journey

Subsequently, on Thurs 27 March 2008, in the evening, I rang up Virgin Trains customer service number on 0870 010 1127 and was put through to a guy in India. I was told that I would only be able to claim a refund on one of my tickets and that I would not be able to claim a refund on my "VALUE ADVANCE" ticket. He also told me that there would be an administrative £5 charge and that even if I was able to claim a refund on both tickets that there would be a administrative £5 charge on both tickets! So, I explained my situation to him, stating how I did not believe how the Key Features of completing the order was made sufficiently aware to me, and he point-blank refused to give me a full refund, saying that I should call another number, 0845 000 8000, in England. I then rang this number and the guy also refused to give me a full refund stating that the fact the one needs to bring along the card they used to make an online booking was in Virgin Trains' "Terms & Conditions" . I told him that at the point of sale, which in my head was order confirmation page, that this was not made aware to me. Infact, if one looks at their Terms & Conditions one will not find any reference to this requirement, so they must have it hidden elsewhere!


HOW VIRGIN TRAINS IS RIPPING OFF UK ONLINE CONSUMERS:

Virgin Trains website header states "buy cheap train tickets online"; - this is a lie and a con, I found that their online tickets cost more than 2 to 4 times as much as buying tickets at a train station counter. What Virgin Trains are doing is using reverse psychology to rip people off: they are using the widespread consumer belief that booking services online is normally cheaper than booking in person because websites sales cost less to manage then in-person sales etc.

Virgin Train online Google ad states:

"Save with Virgin Trains
VirginTrains.co.uk Book in advance for big savings. Earlier is cheaper! Book now."
see Virgin Trains Google Adwords Campaign here

- This also is a big con, conning the average UK online consumer! When I booked online, in advance with Virgin Trains my 2-way return tickets cost me £41.50 + £19.50 + £1 (travel insurance) = £62 and this was with the journey from Birmingham to London being a "VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE" ticket, had it not been then the 2 way trip via Standard travel would have cost me as much as £64.50 + £64.50 = £129. I was able to buy a Standard open same day return from London to Birmingham from Chiltern Railways at their Marylebone station ticket office for £29.50. Yep, Virgin Trains can rip you off up to 2 - 4 times as much as other companies for the same journey!
See the proof here:

Virgin Trains Cost for a same day return trip from London to Birmingham
Chiltern Trains Cost for a same day return trip from London to Birmingham


Virgin Trains unclear terms are in contravention of UK consumer laws:

For example, if you choose a "Value Advance" ticket it will say at the side of the screen:

"Value Advance
Specific off-peak train, reservation essential, partially refundable, partially changeable."

as in the screenshot here
However, if you do actually go on to click the "Value Advanced" link under the "Ticket Category" table column then it states:

"REFUNDS None - all Value Advance fares are non-refundable."

as in the contradictory screenshot here

Thus we can see that this is a clear scam run by Virgin Trains, they know that most people will not go on to click the extra link. VirginTrains terms regarding "Value Advanced" tickets are also contradictory, on one hand claiming that a customer is able to get a partial refund on them and on another claiming outright that no refunds can be claimed on them.

I am seeking a FULL refund for the unused tickets purchased online in March 2008 and for the subsequent online ticket purchased in April 2008. I seeking compensation for the time spent in pursuing these claims due to their customers services both in India and in the UK refusing to provide me with one, and the undue stress this whole episode as put upon me. I am also seeking compensation for the time and work involved in spotting their Unclear Terms as Virgin Trains no doubt employ people whose job it is to check these and they are paid for this - I have done this job for them!


REFERENCES:

Unless you agree otherwise with your online suppliers, they're required to make clear to you the steps involved in completing the online contract and the point at which the contract will be concluded.
Terms and conditions for IT and online contract
under "Online Contracts"

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The Supply of Goods and Services Act, which applies to England, Wales and Northern Ireland, says that a person providing a service must do so with "reasonable care and skill". It also requires the service to be carried out within a "reasonable time" and for no more than a "reasonable charge" unless there was prior agreement with the customer about these matters.
Your responsibilities if you sell services

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inform customers of the steps involved in completing a contract
Additional rules if you sell or market electronically

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poet123

This is standard procedure when buying train/cinema tickets, you always have to have the card used to make the transaction.

dzug

The Chiltern and Virgin tickets are NOT for the same journey. Between the same two cities, yes, but on the same trains, no, between the same two stations, no.

As to 'scam' and 'rip-off' - really. The former means a deliberate intention to defraud; the latter selling something that costs little at an inflated price. You debase the words to use them in this context.

As to what you should do - calm down, forget about it, unless you want to cost yourself a lot more money and aggro to achive little or nothing.

debsy42

Taken from the Virgin Trains website

You could save yourself the time and hassle of queuing by buying your tickets online and then collecting your tickets from a FastTicket machine at any Virgin-operated station. To use the FastTicket machine, just insert your credit or debit card that you used to buy your ticket(s) and key in your FastTicket reference. If you get stuck, instructions are given on the screen or ask a member of our Virgin Trains staff who will be happy to help.

but to be honest, surely common sense should prevail as how can you buy the tickets with one card and then confirm the purchase with another....

duchy

Two different companies.....it'd be like buying an own brand product from Tesco and paying £10 and then complaining because Asda sell their same own brand product cheaper. Two similar products but not the same product although they both ultimately do the same job. It's up to the customer to source the best deal for themselves-train ticket or washing powder.
As for the creditcard-that is just common sense-doesn't matter if it's a train ticket or a cinema ticket or a concert ticket-you need the original card when collecting

2robbo

@ Doug - the Birmingham New Street station serviced by Virgin Trains is literally a 5 minute walk from the Birmingham Moor Street station service by Chiltern Trains, (both via Marylebone Railway Station)

@ Debsy42 – In 2004 I went to the Athens Olympics and booked my plane e-tickets online. I did not need any card in order to pick up my flight tickets, the reference number I had been given sufficed! Also, there is a case in British Law, Smith v Bush [1990], where Smith (a mortgage borrower) took Bush (a house valuer) to court over losses incurred by Bush’s negligent valuation. Bush argued that he could not be held liable for any losses because a disclaimer had appeared on both the mortgage application form and the copy of the valuation report sent to Smith. The courts found in Smith's favour deeming the disclaimer to be ‘unreasonable’ because the Smiths were ‘first-time buyers at the lower end of the market’. So, what is the relevance to me, well, I was a first time user of Virgin Trains online booking and the information to complete the whole transaction was not made sufficiently aware to me!

@ Dzug: “As to 'scam' and 'rip-off' - really. The former means a deliberate intention to defraud; the latter selling something that costs little at an inflated price. You debase the words to use them in this context.” I do not debase the meaning of the words I used. Virgin Trains are trying to scam me by telling me that I can not get a refund on my Value Advanced ticket although their website clearly says that you can: http://www.flickr.com/photos/25547331@N03/2405555520/

Virgin Trains are ripping off many people (see this post here on this very forum: Warning: new Virgin Trains website deliberately overcharges) The price of a comparable journey from London to Birmingham is as much as 4 times that of another train company, if that is not an ‘inflated’ price then I do not know what planet you are living on! Also, you misunderstand the word ‘rip-off’ – a definition is here for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripoff - a rip-off is not based on “selling something that costs little at an inflated price. A ripoff is a bad deal!

poet123

With regard to the collection of airline tickets,I presume you were not using an automated system but were presenting an email confirmation to a member of staff?. That is the crucial difference,it was clearly stated online that it was a machine you were dealing with, and that verification would be required. How else would this be achieved?

Similarly, there are big differences between the case law you cite and the specifics of your problem. The case law is about people buying a service from a 3rd party professional who cannot escape his duty of care by adding an unreasonable caveat re his knowledge. This is not relevant here as the terms and conditions of this type of transaction are well known and widely advertised and do fall under the realms of common sense I am afraid. You seem an articulate,intelligent person and this has been an oversight on your part,I would doubt that a court would find for you in these circumstances. TBH I cannot believe you have never used a similar automated system before,and adhered to the collection requirements.

However, if you still feel stongly after reflecting on the points raised here, then go down the small claims court route,this is the least costly way of having your say in court and(generally) incurs no costs if you lose. The court will consider whether a reasonable person would have picked up from the website all the details required to complete the purchase by collecting the tickets. Ask yourself honestly before you start down the court route whether this is the case here or whether you are imply hopping mad for not reading all the small print and looking to get even. This is what the court will ask,..... and answer.

We have all been where you are with something, but when the red mist clears common sense usually re enters the equation.

ticketcollector

Virmin were the first company to introduce these stupid advance 1/2/3 a/b/c/d tickets. British Rail had them also but they were the same restrictions and rules throughout (Apex, SuperApex, SuperAdvance ring any bells?).

Virmin were also the first company to make you have to put in the original method of payment to pick up tickets, all other TOCs did make it so you could put in a tesco clubcard and then put in the reference number to get them. (I know because I once helped a couple just this way).

Before you go to court, send a letter to the MD of virgin trains, and only threaten small claims court if you are willing to carry out your said actions.

Your contract to purchase tickets is actually with Trainline.com Limited (with company registration number 3846791), and not virmin.
Personally I think customer services will give you a refund just to keep you quiet, but if you do go to court I dont think you will get very far and it will cost them more to defend then to pay out.

Advance fares are changing as of 16th May, and the restrictions are also changing including refund rules.

[Deleted User]

Must say, i've just had to do my first train ticket cancellation from an online Virgin purchase. It's been very smooth and I received a nice email telling me it was being processed (after popping into a train station to fill in cancellation forms). I was told it may take 8 weeks.. it took 1 1/2 weeks

I like virgin.. you're obviously not savvy enough to use online systems properly - stick to riding your bike if you can't work it out.

Keith

2robbo wrote: »

@ Doug - the Birmingham New Street station serviced by Virgin Trains is literally a 5 minute walk from the Birmingham Moor Street station service by Chiltern Trains, (both via Marylebone Railway Station)

The virgin doesn't stop at Marylebone, or aylesbury, or High Wycombe, or any of the other stops your Chiltern train will make, it will be a lot quicker too as it doesn't use the same tracks.

Chiltern is a town to town service, Virgin is inter-city/express service.

If you did get the Chiltern service from Marylebone it will take 2 hours 22 minutes, however, with virgin the journey takes 1 hour 29 minutes

Thomas_Crown

2robbo, the info you should have read is on the 'Buy Tickets' page of the Virgin Trains website under the sub-heading 'Fast Ticket'.

http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/buy_tickets/fast_ticket.aspx


Read the first paragraph 'Using Fast Ticket'.