Paypal, fraud and debt collectors - please advise!

Jazzking

Afternoon all,

Let me set the scene:

January this year, I sold a DVD player on eBay for £34.99 (plus £7.50 P&P)
The buyer paid me promptly via Paypal, gave his address and I posted the item on 10th January.
The item was sent Standard Parcels so naturally took forever to arrive, and the buyer was hassling me about it, but I assured him that it would turn up eventually, and sure enough on the 20th it arrived, he sent me email confirmation and left me good feedback.
I then withdrew the money from Paypal and thought nothing more of it.

In February, I got an email from Paypal saying my account was on hold and under investigation for a fraudulent transaction, and I noticed that £42.49 had been taken from my account to leave me with with minus £42.49. I queried this, and Paypal reponded asking me for all the details I had regarding the DVD player I'd sold, so I answered all their questions, told them who I'd sent it to, how I'd sent it, how much it was worth etc etc.
Weeks went my and nothing was resolved, I couldn't use that account since they needed me to pay £42.49 to balance it again and I certainly wasn't doing that since I know the item arrived.
I thought nothing more of it and created a new account for me to use in the meantime.


Yesterday I received a letter from NCO Financial Services (Debt Collection guys) saying I need to pay them $78.79 to cover the loss of money from my Paypal account!
I called Paypal about this and they explained it to me, that the means the buyer had used to buy the item were fradulent so they had to refund the money to the correct person (from my account) and because his address was unverified I wasn't covered by Seller Protection Policy so had to cough up the money for him being a theiving git!
I explained I wasn't happy about this and they said I should inform the police as it was a case of internet fraud, get a crime number and then call NCO on Monday. The police however, were having none of it, saying it's a civil matter between myself and Paypal and they weren't able to get involved :mad:

I'm going to call the CAB tomorrow to see what they suggest, since I've got proof that I sent the item and it has been received, and also emails from Paypal to suggest that the transaction was fraudulent so I could threaten to pursue it through Small Claims but who am I dealing with now, NCO, Paypal, or the buyer? I have sent an email to buyer today requeting the money back but I'm not very hopeful...

I spotted a couple of other threads with people in a similar situation to this, but don't know how they were resolved - if anyone has any advice on what I should be doing next?

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Alex

chodges84

Don't know what to suggest.

I will say this though, if a buyer pays for that amount always send it tracable, so you can prove it has been delivered. The buyer could of said he never received it and you would have been chargedback as you couldn't prove they had received it. Even though you can prove it was sent you must be able to prove it was received (an e-mail from the buyer is no good in Paypal's eyes), via a service that can be tracked online, e.g Recorded or Special Delivery.

It sounds like the Buyer used a stolen credit card to pay for the goods, and you should report this to the police, as you have his name and address. The person who had their credit card stolen issued a chargeback and got there money back from Paypal, as you weren't covered by seller protection, they took it back from you. If you had've been covered, Paypal would have swallowed the cost.

If you went through small claims you would have to try and get it off the buyer. You agreed that paypal could take the money back from you when you sent the item to an unverified address (yeah, it sucks). It's in their T & C's which you agreed to when signing up. NCO are just acting on their behalf to get their money back. A lot of people leave it and hope it goes away, but i would be inclined to give the CAB a ring. they may just advise you to pay back the moeny, which would leave you out of pocket and the scum buyer will ahve a DVD player and used a stolen credit card and got away with it because the police couldn't be bothered.

bleugh

https://www.paypalwarning.com
https://www.aboutpaypal.org
https://www.paypalsucks.com

paypal, unfortunatley has a LOT of faults, personally I lost £200 a few years ago, for much the same reason as you, 'fraudulant transaction.

i stopped taking it for a few years, but have had to to help sales, I won't take paypal for high value goods though, i'll stretch to around £30, and i wont take paypal from users with <10 feedback to provide myself with a bit of insurance.


trouble is, paypal for casual users costs nothing due to the two tiered account system.
those casual users make up the vast majority of ebay purchasers, and often have unregistered addresses, whihc of course means that you're not covered by paypal's protection policy

Altarf

I suspect that rather than being a fraudulent method of payment it is the usual fraudulent claim of non-delivery. Paypal will not accept an email from the buyer as proof of delivery, only the proof from a traceable delivery method (recorded delivery, special delivery, courier, etc).

Anyway you have two options

- Roll over and pay up, or
- Spend a bit of time and effort causing a fuss.

If you want to go for the latter, bearing in mind we are talking about £40, write to NCO and Paypal and ask them for a copy of the file detailing their investigations into the fraudulent transaction, so you can hand it over to the police for them to pursue their investigations. Request that they confirm that any debt collection action has been placed on hold until they have provided this. Obviously send recorded delivery letters.

I expect that rather than exposing their lack of fraud investigation, you will receive a reply saying that they have now closed the matter and written off the amount owed.

As for the police, if a fraudulent credit card has been used or a false claim for non-delivery then this is a crime, not a civil matter. You would need to be persistant to get them to do anything other than issue a crime number though.

You could also pull the buyers details and give them a ring and let them know that you are going to the police.

Jazzking

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies so far, I will definitely be causing a fuss about this... I know it's only £40 which isn't much compared to what others have had to go through to try and claim it back, but it's more than I'm enough to let go without a fight, if it was any more then I probably would have insisted on Special Delivery or even recorded to get it tracked to his door...

The police seem convinced that they can't do anything about it, whether it was a stolen credit card or not; they are saying I need to take legal advice and the dispute is between me and Paypal. Paypal, however are equally convinced that the police can help and suggested the Polce called paypal (they have a number they can discuss these things with apparently) but thepolice declined to do this, and I wasn't about to start arguing with them (this was my second visit of the day)

I'll see what the CAB say tomorrow, then get in touch with NCO to get their perspective on things, although as far as they're concerned it is just a debt that I owe, and probably aren't aware, or even care about the full details...

Regards,
alex

talksalot81

So the police basically said it wasnt their problem if someone is fraudulently using a credit card...... you should ask the officer if you could see his credit card for a minute.....

kit

Hi Alex

I have had the same problem recently - I have a post on here about it.

I emailed my local police and this is what they said:

"........it is a theft/deception and needs to be reported in person to the local police station, a crime report will be drawn and the crime will be allocated to someone to investigate.

You could try contacting eBay and/or Paypal and going down the line of their own fraud complaint process, it is slow and painful but they can retrieve losses."

I would be happy to forward this email to you to take to your local station if you PM me your email address.

Paypal are currently emailing me on a regular basis asking me to pay them - they can go jump! Not sure what action I am next going to take, cant really afford the costs of small claims but cant afford to pay back paypal either!

Keep me informed of your progress and good luck.

ted_2

Hi -
I stopped using PayPal years ago because of the lack of protection. I hate being ripped off, and it makes me mad for weeks, so now i only receive cheques, and i only pay by cheque. It is slow and time consuming, but i wouldnt have it any other way. I don't know if you remember the old eBay payments, the forerunner to PayPal on the EBay site? That was much better, and didn't have any of the hassles that PayPal seems to have.

On the subject of the small claims thing, I have been to court for these (as plaintiff) quite a few times, for everything from cars to tumble dryers. To be honest, in my experience £42 is not really enough to make it worth their while, especially if you have the 'moral' case, if not the 'legal' one.

The costs might not be awarded in full, and their solicitor might cost £1000 to get him/her there. You might find that they back down if you suggest talking to the Trading Standards or Press? It would make a good story on a quiet Wednesday for local papers. Alternatively, if you live in Wales, contact 'X-Ray' the consumer programme, which chases stuff like a rabid dog.

Good luck!

Ted

Jazzking

Hi All,

Just to give you an update on how this panned out...

I followed Altarf's suggestion and wrote to Paypal and NCO detailing that I would like an explanation as to why I was being charged, and suggested they should cancel the debt and refund my account.

In the meantime, I sent me findings to the police in Nottingham to investigate the fraud, and reported Paypal to the Financial Ombudsman since I thouht they had treated me unfairly....

Today I had a letter back from Paypal saying they had refunded my account £45.10 and withdrawn the debt collectors from my case - result!!

However, I had already sent NCO the payment by cheque but it's not cleared yet so I should be able to stop it in time (it'll cost me £10 but I don't want another figh on my hands!)

So, for anyone else who feels they#ve been treated badly by Paypal then send them a letter detailing what you want and you never know you might be OK...
I've learned the hard way, but at least I'm aware of the implicatinos of not following their rules and I'll make sure in the future that I only accept payments from verified addresses and send using a tracable method and hopefully everything will be fine

~Alex~

heather+tom

DON’T stare into the oncoming driving lights …step aside … in time .. USE the FREE –BACS - purely UK SERVICE … as a replacement for lining the pockets of PAYPAL/EBAY with GOLD for + enduring the misery of the PAY PALS ‘almost daily changing random regime- terms and conditions ’


Direct Bank Transfer

Free to make payment to any UK bank or online banking. Contact SELLER to obtain their bank account details

..or as a SELLER -just MAIL after succesful Auction your DATA to any Buyer ... YOU'll be surprised ... most people are happy to use a FREE and EVEN MORE convenient system ...

For all YOUR 'car boot sale type items' you will Prefer Direct bank transfer.
For anything more expensive , even more so ... in your own interest .. (one day, you are the seller - as well- and pay in excess 10 % to the EBAY- money making machine... in many millions of cases only EBAY 'makes money' )




BACS (Banks Automated Clearing System)

...a safe, free, fast BRITISH BANKING - system


A BACS payment can be set up (by you) to electronically transfer money direct from your bank account to a creditor's bank account. This will involve obtaining the creditor's bank details to set up such a payment. Money from your account can then be credited to the creditor's bank account as and when you need to.



A BACS payment can usually take up to two working days to clear.



BACS payments are popular for paying staff - wages are transferred direct from the business bank account to the employees' bank accounts. In fact, today, it is the most common way for an employee to be paid in the UK - and it is the only way ... to pay for anything - on the CONTINENT .. for many ..many DECADES. (Credit Cards are only used in shops, sometimes for Travel and for Petrol..)


A BACS payment can usually take up to two working days to clear.


Of course -- the MONEY is available in your Bank account! - After 2 days!! ... Earning YOU* interest ... (or reducing overdraft - in some cases ... :-)) --

+ Instead of interest (not credited to you) by PAYPAL ... instead added to their coffers- keeping YOU and YOUR money conveniently ... Or not so conveniently separated



Since starting in 1999 with just 24 users, PayPal has grown to 72 million accountholders. The service processed payments totalling $6.2 billion during the first quarter, with 71 percent of the activity occurring in eBay's online auctions.

PayPal...The service is becoming an increasingly important source of revenue for San Jose-based eBay, which bought PayPal for $1.3 billion in 2002.

PayPal generated $233.1 million, or 23 percent, of eBay's revenue during the first quarter. (2005)

arushofblood

Similar story...

I've had a chargeback issued to me for £234 from a guy claiming that his card was used fraudulantly. Took him 3 months to realise though ?!?!? Paypal said that they will have to pay the money then would fight for it back but I'm likely to lose ! *Really* !!!!!! off about it !

My account was frozen until I'd transferred enough funds to 'put on hold' to pay this guy back. Had no choise to release the funds as I had other transactions to make. No win situation really ?!?!

Jazzking, could you let me know the postal address you used for Paypal please ? Gonna write me a letter !