Alliance and Leicester

masonic

blueberrypie wrote: »

No interpretation needed? I beg to differ...

One of my accounts currently shows an available balance of £500 less than the actual balance. I know what this £500 is - it's a standing order that is set up to leave my account on the 5th of each month. Today is the 3rd. The payment does not show on the list of transactions - and nor should it, as it's not due to leave the account until Tuesday. But it doesn't show on the list of pending transactions either, or anywhere else - except in the available balance. The only way I can tell that it's that standing order is by looking at the list of standing orders, which shows that the next payment date for that one is June 5th.

If that £500 payment had taken my available balance to below zero, I'd be charged for being overdrawn, despite the fact that it's not even due to be paid until Tuesday, and that I could easily fund the account via faster payments from another bank before then. How can it not be "available" when it's not actually due to be paid yet?

A&L's terms and conditions require funds to be in place by the end of the working day before a payment goes out. That was last Friday. Therefore, the money is no longer available to prevent you from accidentally spending it.

Another of my A&L accounts is fed on the 1st of each month, by standing order, from the current account. That payment left my current account on 1st May, and it shows on the "balance" of the receiving account - but is *not* included on the available balance.

That's odd. When I've sent faster payments to my A&L account, they've always affected my available balance straight away, even on non-working days. There doesn't happen to be a card payment/standing order/direct debit due to out of the account for the same value as the credit?

Mrs_Ryan

bjones4 wrote: »

Secondly, the Visa Debit they sent, is apparently from a bad batch which are masquerading as Visa Electrons, apparently they were given the wrong chips, I found this out at Sheffield train station trying to buy my montly ticket, I was told it was a regular occurence with new A&L cards and to request another. I did exactly that, and as of yesterday, my old card wasn't working, so I gave them a call, and was told, yes it wouldn't work because it's been deactivated, they said they were having problems getting new cards and it should be here next week.... great! so I had to draw cash out on a credit card which I hate having to do at all, let alone when theres a healthy bank balance i cant get to!

Its not a bad batch, they purposely do this. In some of my previous posts, I have mentioned that I reported them to the FOS for this and the FOS have rapped them but they refuse to do anything about it.

Right, where do I start???

I opened the Premier account on Xmas Eve 2007 after a spectacular show of incompetence from NatWest... my mum and dad had a Premier 50 account and were pleased so I thought I'd give them a go.
In the year and a half I've been with them they have.......

Repeatedly denied that the so-called 'Visa Debit' they are issuing is in fact a Visa Electron, despite the fact I have presented evidence to them and the FOS that they are making false claims about what it can and cant do;

Placed false information on my credit file stating that I have missed direct debit payments when I have clear evidence I havent and when challenged about it saying 'because we can' (rapped by the FOS for this)

Lying that they will upgrade my account without a credit check then credit checking me repeatedly without permission (they got in real trouble for this)

Saying that they will freeze my account and not allow access to my £1100 wages just before Christmas if I did not bring my account into credit on a SUNDAY and saying I must ring them at one specific time when I couldnt.... for going slightly overdrawn just after the FOS ruled in my favour against them.... (as it happens I really put their noses out of joint as my wages did actually show on that Sunday)

Saying I could have an overdraft and when I rang the next day saying theres a note on saying I'm not ever allowed an overdraft... :eek: I asked to speak to a manager and was told no! You're not getting one end of!

Thanks to all the false information on my credit file, I was rejected repeatedly elsewhere, and now the only account I can get is an Easycash one with Halifax... I've had to keep the A&L account as I need my Visa Debit. I also got a letter from them about a financial review recently which was quite interesting.

I changed my name by deed poll in March but have kept this account in my original name, and dont intend on changing it. They dont know my new name but the letter was in my new name which is quite worrying.... when I rang them to ask why they just said 'we dont know, but dont worry about it.....'!!!!

And this people, is why I love A&L!!! (oh the sarcasm)

blueberrypie

masonic wrote: »

A&L's terms and conditions require funds to be in place by the end of the working day before a payment goes out. That was last Friday. Therefore, the money is no longer available to prevent you from accidentally spending it.

The example was given in response to a claim that the "available balance" didn't require any interpretation. What's happening is completely unclear from the on-line banking. If a payment has already been deducted from the available balance, that payment should show up on the list of transactions which have been completed, or in the list of pending transactions. It doesn't show up on either, or anywhere else.

That's odd. When I've sent faster payments to my A&L account, they've always affected my available balance straight away, even on non-working days. There doesn't happen to be a card payment/standing order/direct debit due to out of the account for the same value as the credit?

It's not a faster payment - it's a payment from one A&L account to another A&L account. And the transaction does show on the record of the account it left on May 1st.

A faster payment from elsewhere would actually reach the account faster!

If I transfer £100 from one A&L account to another A&L account, it takes days to get there. If I transfer that £100 by faster payment to, say, Halifax, and then do a faster payment from Halifax back to the second A&L account - it takes minutes. (Unless I've already used my massive £250 fp allowance on the first account that day, of course, in which case they'll send it to Halifax by BACS.)

masonic

blueberrypie wrote: »

The example was given in response to a claim that the "available balance" didn't require any interpretation. What's happening is completely unclear from the on-line banking. If a payment has already been deducted from the available balance, that payment should show up on the list of transactions which have been completed, or in the list of pending transactions. It doesn't show up on either, or anywhere else.

Well, yes, I agree it should show up on your statement dated Tuesday and it doesn't. That's a problem with the online statement, though, not the available balance. The available balance is correct and up to date.

It's not a faster payment - it's a payment from one A&L account to another A&L account. And the transaction does show on the record of the account it left on May 1st.

A faster payment from elsewhere would actually reach the account faster!

Well then, surely you can't say the available balance is wrong then? It's just that the payment has not yet cleared. Again, the T&Cs state that for transfers between two A&L accounts the money does not normally become availabe for withdrawal until the working day after the money reaches your account.

If I transfer £100 from one A&L account to another A&L account, it takes days to get there. If I transfer that £100 by faster payment to, say, Halifax, and then do a faster payment from Halifax back to the second A&L account - it takes minutes. (Unless I've already used my massive £250 fp allowance on the first account that day, of course, in which case they'll send it to Halifax by BACS.)

Personally, I now FP across most of my salary (£250 per day) to another account and use that for any >£250 payments I need to make during the month. There will come a time when I get fed up with A&L for not increasing their limits and simply switch everything across to another bank account.

So, yes, their online statement facility can be confusing and their poor handling of faster payments is annoying, but the online available balance facility is one thing that works correctly.

blueberrypie

masonic wrote: »

Well, yes, I agree it should show up on your statement dated Tuesday and it doesn't. That's a problem with the online statement, though, not the available balance. The available balance is correct and up to date.

But the claim was that it didn't require interpretation - and it *does*. I happen to know what that £500 difference is - but if I didn't? That's my point - not that the available balance is *wrong*, but that it is not clear.

Let's say the other person on a joint account had withdrawn £100 and I'd a standing order for £100 - I might assume that a £100 reduction in the available balance was due to the standing order, and plan accordingly, only to go overdrawn when the standing order was debited. Yes, I should be aware of what's going on in my account (and I am) - but I also think that it should be clear from on-line banking (and it isn't).

Well then, surely you can't say the available balance is wrong then?

I never did.

It's just that the payment has not yet cleared. Again, the T&Cs state that for transfers between two A&L accounts the money does not normally become availabe for withdrawal until the working day after the money reaches your account.

...which is a ridiculous state of affairs. It really shouldn't take that long - someone is making a mint off all those bits of money which aren't in one account anymore but aren't in the other account yet.

And in fact the £150 I mentioned earlier is now showing on the available balance for that account - so it has nothing to do with "working days".

Personally, I now FP across most of my salary (£250 per day) to another account and use that for any >£250 payments I need to make during the month.

I think it's daft that you have to do this. Other banks manage to move money from one account to another instantly. A&L can receive money through FP instantly. There's no good reason why it shouldn't improve on transfers between its own accounts.

There will come a time when I get fed up with A&L for not increasing their limits and simply switch everything across to another bank account.

So, yes, their online statement facility can be confusing and their poor handling of faster payments is annoying, but the online available balance facility is one thing that works correctly.

Here's the comment I originally replied to:
"Whilst other balances shown on A&L's internet banking need some interpretation, available balance generally does not."

My point is that it is not *clear*. It is not always easy to see what's going on. I check my accounts almost every day, and I keep track of my accounts using Moneydance - and I still sometimes have to work out what's happening, rather than being able to see it at a glance. A few years ago, I paid my credit-card balance twice one month, because I set up the payment a couple of weeks in advance, and then, when it was due to be paid, I couldn't see it anywhere on-line, and thought I must have forgotten to set up the payment - so I paid again. That was when I realised how untrustworthy the "pending payments" page is - how a payment could disappear into a black hole for a couple of days - and was glad I kept track elsewhere, so that I could ensure paying that bill twice didn't take me overdrawn.

Customers who don't keep track as closely as I do are bound to be confused. There's absolutely no good reason why it should be that way, other than A&L's unwillingness to improve it.

I don't actually have any major gripes about A&L in general - but the on-line banking hasn't changed/improved in years, and it's been left behind now by what's on offer from every other institution I use - and that includes the provision of an available balance that doesn't need the customer to be a detective to figure out what's in their account and what isn't.

MarkyMarkD

I'm sorry, blueberry, but masonic is getting my point and you are not.

You don't need to *understand* the available balance - you just need it to be right. And it is. That is what I meant by saying it doesn't require interpretation - it's already there in plain English as the correct amount.

Regarding most of the other points - they are part of the account's terms which you signed up to. They might not be as swish as other banks' - but then the rates on A&L's are/were a lot better. Swings and roundabouts.

The FP thing is seriously pathetic. I didn't know - till I read this thread today - that there was an FP limit of £250. I have e-mailed A&L asking why FPs of £10k I have done have not gone via FP - and they haven't replied, months later. If it were not that I have stopped keeping any substantial spare money in the A&L account, I might have chased it up earlier.

Pending payments are shown until the day before they are actually made, when they stop being pending and are actually in the BACS system. That is why they "disappear into a black hole".

A&L know that the online banking system is pants. They were 99% through a project to replace the whole banking system - including online - when they were bought by Santander who threw the whole project away pending replacing it with the same system that Abbey uses. Unfortunately that means that A&L customers are stuck with the rubbish system for a lot longer than they would otherwise have been.

A&L's core banking system is the one they got when they bought Girobank almost 20 years ago. It wasn't even new then. It is scarcely surprising that it's a bit useless. It was built for overnight batch processing of paper-based transactions, not for real-time processing of electronic transactions. That is why it creaks terribly when things like Faster Payments and ATM transactions are added into the mix.

blueberrypie

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

I'm sorry, blueberry, but masonic is getting my point and you are not.

You don't need to *understand* the available balance - you just need it to be right. And it is.

I, personally, need (or at least want) to be able to understand it. Maybe I have control issues ;-) - but I want to be able to know what the numbers associated with my bank account actually mean.

I don't want to be told "There's £224 available for you to withdraw." I want to know what has already gone through my account - what has arrived, what has cleared, what has been taken out. I can do that with the six other institutions I have on-line banking set up with - and I can do it with A&L, but not without far more effort.

There are frequent threads on this board in which people complain that they went overdrawn because they didn't understand their available balance. If they're banking with A&L, that's not surprising.

That is what I meant by saying it doesn't require interpretation - it's already there in plain English as the correct amount.

Regarding most of the other points - they are part of the account's terms which you signed up to. They might not be as swish as other banks' - but then the rates on A&L's are/were a lot better. Swings and roundabouts.

I think that was probably true when I started to bank with A&L. I'm not convinced it's true today.

The FP thing is seriously pathetic. I didn't know - till I read this thread today - that there was an FP limit of £250. I have e-mailed A&L asking why FPs of £10k I have done have not gone via FP - and they haven't replied, months later.

I've asked them a similar question on the phone, and been given a few excuses to choose from - all of them evidently not true.

If it were not that I have stopped keeping any substantial spare money in the A&L account, I might have chased it up earlier.

Pending payments are shown until the day before they are actually made, when they stop being pending and are actually in the BACS system. That is why they "disappear into a black hole".

Then A&L needs another page - "payments in process" or something. A black hole isn't good enough.

A&L know that the online banking system is pants. They were 99% through a project to replace the whole banking system - including online - when they were bought by Santander who threw the whole project away

Well that at least goes some way to explaining it.

pending replacing it with the same system that Abbey uses. Unfortunately that means that A&L customers are stuck with the rubbish system for a lot longer than they would otherwise have been.

A&L's core banking system is the one they got when they bought Girobank almost 20 years ago. It wasn't even new then. It is scarcely surprising that it's a bit useless. It was built for overnight batch processing of paper-based transactions, not for real-time processing of electronic transactions. That is why it creaks terribly when things like Faster Payments and ATM transactions are added into the mix.

Yeah, and that creaking is driving me (and, I imagine, a fair few other customers) away.

Surfer

What happened wityh me isa that I checked my available balance and it showed lower than what it should have which would then have made me overdrawn. I immediatly c ancelled a DD to prevent going overdrawn.
I was only afterwards I realised that although the SO was only the next day, the available balance reflected the SO had already occurred. They also do thsi with DDs. Surely the available balance should only change on the day it leaves your account and not the day before. One day they may not do this and I will ot bother and then probably find msyelf overdrawn due to the confucing way they show the balances.
On querying this with them by email they never bothered to repond.

MarkyMarkD

A&L are not the only institution to reduce your available balance on the previous working day for DDs and SOs. I would argue that it is a very good thing as it stops you spending money you don't really have.

Surfer

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

A&L are not the only institution to reduce your available balance on the previous working day for DDs and SOs. I would argue that it is a very good thing as it stops you spending money you don't really have.

Totally disagree as it also looks as if you may not have sufficient funds to meet all your DDs the following day causing unncessary concern.