NPower gas 'sculpting'

DirectDebacle

sofa-spud wrote: »

Hi DD,
I think there is a mistake in the bill table of mine you reproduced. you seem to have lost some columns after the first line.

Anyone agree or disagree with these figures please?

Agreed.

Yep I put 109 instead of 49 in your second bill. Guess I should have gone to Specsavers.

You have done the maths perfectly.

To nit pick there were 29 days in Feb 04 which reduces the overcharge by 6kWh. No big deal.:D

sofa-spud

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Agreed.

To nit pick there were 29 days in Feb 04 which reduces the overcharge by 6kWh. No big deal.:D

Off course.
I was so focused on the calendar year 04/05 not being a leap year...:o

For others info, I have, using the method of working out each calendar year from 1/4 to 31/3 come up with the the following overcharges:

04/05: 696 KWH's
07/08: 1837 KWH's

So, referring to npowers comments in the Times article link DD posted there is at least one more customer in the same situation as he was for the year 04/05...

sofa-spud

Sterling wrote: »

Limitation Act 1980

An action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.


As regards Npower’s sculpting switch of 1st October 2004, it seems to me that the cause of action does not accrue until the customer has been overcharged, and he knows by how much. Since the overcharging can’t have happened before the switch of 1st October 2004, this marks the earliest that the clock can start to run surely.

It must also be remembered that the change on that date only resulted in overcharging for any continuous period of twelve months that included that date. Furthermore, the cause of action surely could not arise until the customer knew that he had been overcharged, and that would not be until the expiration of that yearly period, which would be post 1st October 2004. So I do not see a problem with the six year limitation for many months to come.

It must also be remembered that Npower made this change in 2004 in a clandestine fashion, keeping its customers entirely in the dark. Not only was this illegal, it made it impossible for its customers to foresee at the time of the change that they would be overcharged. As I understand it, a cause of action does not begin to accrue until the claimant knew of it or should reasonably had known of it. Exactly when the claimant should reasonably have known can only have been when he was in a position to tot up the high tier units on his bills at the end of the twelve monthly period, and that could be as late as for example spring 2005 or even later.

I don’t think Npower can hid behind the six year limitation period just yet.

Having read through a copy of the act (bear in mind I am not a Solicitor!) I would agree with you in that section 5 makes it quite clear about the 6 year limit.

My take on it is that npower initiated changes on 1/10/04 that lead to the overcharging of customers.
I feel this date could not be disputed.

From the act;

32 Postponement of limitation period in case of fraud, concealment or
mistake
(1) Subject to subsections (3) and (4A) below, where in the case of any
action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act,
either--
(a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or
(b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has
been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant;
or
(c) the action is for relief from the consequences of a

mistake;

I think the issue here would become one of proving either fraud or deliberate concealment.
Their defence so far has been one that they felt they did not need to notify customers? hence they did not deliberately conceal the changes?. It would be interesting to see the outcome of such an argument if it was allowed to go that far.
As I read it the relief from mistake would amount to refund of the overcharges, but not force a recalculation of all bills from the date the contract was entered into (1/4/03?). i.e. correct any error due to overcharge, but forget about any claim for breach of contract.

As I said I'm not a Solicitor, so this is just the opinion of a 'layperson':)

For those interested here are the links:
An explanation of the act:
http://www.pinsentmasons.com/media/1667939007.pdf
The act itself:
http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/docs/cp151apa.pdf

DirectDebacle

As one lay person to another I agree with you. The important thing is that you are aware of the time factor and have taken steps to reduce its impact. To confidently back date a breach of contract to 1/4/2003 at this stage would require proper legal advice.

Sterling

Sterling wrote: »

But maybe just… maybe there is a way of righting this wrong after all. Many posts ago Cardew rightly mentioned the possibility of a “class action”. He indicated that this is much used in the USA, and that this matter would have long since been resolved over there. Unfortunately, this concept is in its infancy under English law, but it is beginning to look as though a collective or representative action could perhaps be brought against Npower along similar lines in this country after all. I suspect that there will be a mention of this in one of Mark Atherton’s excellent articles in The Times in the not too distant future.

Since I wrote that post on 16th February, we have of course now seen Mark Atherton’s article in The Times on Saturday, 27th February. What now seems abundantly clear is that the legal advice Consumer Focus has received indicates firstly that Npower has no legitimate defence in this matter; and secondly that if necessary a collective or representative action can after all be brought against Npower.

If that was not the case, I doubt that Consumer Focus would be in a position to oblige Npower to sit round the table and discuss a collective settlement.

In other words, all the excuses that Npower offered to its affected customers since they first twigged that something was wrong, are pure baloney; and Npower’s low key attempts to pay off persistent customers one at a time on a so-called “goodwill basis” has not succeeded in getting Npower off the hook after all.

Of course, there is a long way to go before Npower is brought fully to account, but this is a massive step forward, and I take my hat off to Consumer Focus for so doggedly sticking with this.

I can’t help wondering how embarrassing it will be for Ofgem if Consumer Focus succeeds where Ofgem failed so miserably, especially as Consumer Focus has none of Ofgem’s regulatory powers.

Speaking of Ofgem, I have today heard from the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman service as follows

“I have raised queries with Ofgem and they have requested copies of all your complaint letters and associated documentation. Please confirm this is acceptable to you.

I will then be in a position to forward copies all your complaints correspondence, in order for them to provide a response to my queries. Please note I will need to provide Ofgem an extension due to the length of documents they have asked to view.”

I have of course replied giving my consent to the PHSO as requested. I fully expect Ofgem to stretch any delay out to the maximum, and so to proceed at the same outrageously leisurely pace that it did when it considered my complaint directly to it. But stall as it might, a day of reckoning may well arrive for Ofgem sooner or later.

I believe that events as referred to above are increasingly showing that the regulatory body, Ofgem, felt its role was to protect energy supply companies from the public, rather than vice versa.

sofa-spud

Sterling,
PM sent to you

topographic

First time poster - many thanks for all the advice here. I contacted Npower in mid-March to say that I believed I had been overcharged for 07/08, and they sent me the standard letter saying they hadn't. I escalated the claim, all via email, got messed around for a week when they eventually gave me a reference number, and finally via a phone call got an offer of £50 to be credited to my account. I didn't do any exact calculations at all. Just seemed like they wanted me to stop pestering them. So a result without having to try too hard at all. Thank you all again for making me aware of these corporate thieves!!

sofa-spud

Well,
Its been rather quiet on this thread for far too long now:)

So I thought I would let people know that my long running saga has just ended...
Result is a settlement well in excess of £2000 from npower, although this figure does include some costs the nett result is still comfortably above £2K.
This settlement figure is for a user (Me) that only uses 12000KWh's a year...

Thanks to all who have been involved in this thread as it was this that alerted me.
A special BIG thanks to Direct Debacle who has been helping me off-forum with support & information which has proved invaluable.:beer:
Any other aggreived customers up for a go?

They can be beaten...

DirectDebacle

sofa-spud wrote: »

Well,
Its been rather quiet on this thread for far too long now:)

So I thought I would let people know that my long running saga has just ended...
Result is a settlement well in excess of £2000 from npower, although this figure does include some costs the nett result is still comfortably above £2K.
This settlement figure is for a user (Me) that only uses 12000KWh's a year...

Any other aggreived customers up for a go?

They can be beaten...

Yes they can be beaten and well beaten.

Settled for well over £2k!! Absolutely outstanding. Well done and it was a pleasure to assist you. Thats what this thread has been all about, to help others recover that which was wrongfully taken from them. There must still be 10's of thousands still not been repaid their overcharges.

Thanks for letting us know and once again well done. Brilliant.

undaunted

:T Well done you it's time these greedy companies were brought down a peg or two!

Why not get your story in the press if you can letting others know that "seeming might" is not always right, the "worm can turn" and win!

PS For 2k, I hope you've sent Direct debacle a real drink