police asking for documents

Conor_3

sunshine124 wrote: »

sorry espresso, i didn't make myself clear, no she didn't have insurance for that vehicle, but i wont ask the question a third time...

So that's 6 points to her for no insurance, 6 points to her friend for allowing the car to be driven without insurance plus whatever they decided to chuck on top for not producing documents. She'd better warn her friend that they can be expecting points as well.

Won't go to prison but could quite percievably lose her licence. Regardless, she can expect not to be able to afford to insure her car for the next few years as few insurers will insure someone convicted of no insurance and those who will will screw her for it.

If she decides to forge an insurance document then she can be done for fraud as in proper full blown fraud which is imprisonable so warn her not to go that route.

sunshine124

yes guys this is the same friend who was caught "driving without due care and attention" and for that she is going on a driver improvement course in 2 weeks, will this new incident effect that course? She does have a full clean driving licence, but couldn't afford the insurance last year. She did have insurance up until september and didn't renew after that, and then this letter came to her, which i haven't seen, i will ask to see it tommorow. I have told her to join this website but she doesn't have a pc so thats why I am doing all the work, anyway she is my friend and i can only try to help her.

Reggie_Rebel

You could help her, and any unfortunate on the same road, by making sure she doesn't drive a car without insurance again.

cyclonebri1

I think your friend is batting on a very sticky wicket unless her friend has any driver cover? - very unlikely as expensive.

mrbadexample

Conor wrote: »

So that's 6 points to her for no insurance, 6 points to her friend for allowing the car to be driven without insurance plus whatever they decided to chuck on top for not producing documents. She'd better warn her friend that they can be expecting points as well.

Won't go to prison but could quite percievably lose her licence. Regardless, she can expect not to be able to afford to insure her car for the next few years as few insurers will insure someone convicted of no insurance and those who will will screw her for it.

If she decides to forge an insurance document then she can be done for fraud as in proper full blown fraud which is imprisonable so warn her not to go that route.

Conor, it's clear you enjoy scaremongering, but it doesn't actually help. :rolleyes:

No insurance is 5-8 points. Why say it's 6? It might be, but equally, it might not. Stop guessing.

As far as the owner of the vehicle goes, it's unlikely that any action will be taken against them at all, unless they're stupid enough to inform the police that they were fully aware that the user of the vehicle had no insurance, but were quite happy to let them drive it anyway.

mrbadexample

chuckles1066 wrote: »

If you, sorry, they weren't, and Plod have only just contacted you, oops, them, then tell your "friend" to tell them to sod off because they're outside of any timeframe to chase them.

So, chuckles, what's the timeframe? I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Have you anything to support your statement?

Wig

Stopped and asked by plod to produce documents - I'd be surprised of a piece of paper (a producer) was not issued at the same time, in all likely hood it must have been, so all the guessing and chit chat about telling plod to go and jump, is just a waste of time. Until the friend specifically says she was not given a producer, I suggest we assume she was.

She has to ask friend if she was a named driver on her friends insurance, or if friend has "any driver" cover. If your friends friend did have insurance to allow your friend to drive her car, then your friend had better pretty damned quick get that proof down to the cop station.

If she was not insured on friends car, she has 2 options
1. Tell plod she was driving the car with permission without insurance
She will get points and a fine & her friend will get points and a fine, assuming her friend does not lie or does not see things from a different perspective.

2. She can say (to protect her friend) she was driving without permission and without insurance. She will be done for no insurance and taking a vehicle without permission. Sentence points and a bigger fine.

What will the fines be? Dunno, but I'd have thought scenario 1) £350 - £500, scenario 2) £500 - £800

She won't go to prison. She will qualify for legal aid. The judge will allow her to make reasonable payments
Just my opinion you understand, she will get better advice from her appointed solicitor.

So was she insured when she caused the accident in January?
If she was then this shouldn't affect the driving course (IMHO) the driving course should be done and dusted by the time this OP offence reaches court.

Yes, anyone of any mental capacity can appoint someone else as power of attorney over their affairs. It does not have to be formally registered, in this case, as it is not intended to be a permanent measure. See here
http://www.clickdocs.co.uk/power-of-attorney.htm

Conor_3

mrbadexample wrote: »

Conor, it's clear you enjoy scaremongering, but it doesn't actually help. :rolleyes:

No insurance is 5-8 points. Why say it's 6? It might be, but equally, it might not. Stop guessing.

Because if you go look in the paper, you'll see the vast majority of people are given 6 points. Likewise "Stop Police" type programmes where they tell you what the offender received. 6 points is a standard issue for no insurance. Regardless of how many points she gets, she's still going to have the offence code for no insurance so she's still going to be stuffed with insurers.

Action does get taken against owners quite frequently to their shock.

It's not scaremongering, it's what happens. You should try getting out more and you'd see for yourself.

Conor_3

Wig wrote: »

So was she insured when she caused the accident in January?

Jusging about the comment regarding her insurance lapsing in September, it's not likely. I bet the person she ran into really appreciates being totally out of pocket, probably losing their NCB and paying through the nose for their own insurance for the next few years thanks to this selfish cow.

Happychappy

Wig is correct, but unfortunately the barrack room lawyer who gives advice to tell plod to sling his hook is not correct.

Also the police are under no obligation to issue an HORT1, the offence is complete when your friend was stopped in that they failed to produce insurance, the police do not take action if within 7 days the documents are produced. The Police usually have 6 months in which to lay information and prosecute, however, the insurance offence can under certain circumstances be prosecuted within a three year period, sorry chuckles, back to the bar room again for another howler.

Unfortunately the fine will only be around the £500 to £600 mark which does not reflect the severity of the offence and is not reflected in it being a deterrent as insurance is becoming more expensive which is why more people risk not being insured, some areas have a very high number of uninsured vehicles on the road, but with the demise of traffic police and the reliance of ANPR and PNC databases, little is done to find the uninsured driver who does not register the vehicle.

The Offence

Under Section 165 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 a Police Constable has the power to require:

1. a person driving a motor vehicle on a road; or
2. a person whom the Constable believes was driving a vehicle at the time of an accident; or
3. a person whom the Constable believes committed an offence in relation to the use of a motor vehicle;

to give their name and address and, if different the name and address of the owner of the vehicle. The likelihood is that you would be asked to produce your documents when stopped at the side of the road, but this is not always the case. You can be asked to produce for inspection:

1. a valid insurance certificate;
2. a current MOT certificate; and/or
3. your driving licence (both parts).

Where you are unable to produce the documents immediately you would normally be given an HORT1 'Producer'. If you are given a 'Producer' you will be required to nominate a Police Station at which to produce your documents. You will be given 7 days from the date of the 'Producer' to present the documents required.


For fuller commentary see (Wilkinson's 21st edition p 2.45 - 2.55).
Many road traffic offences are purely summary and in most cases proceedings are taken by way of the laying of an information and the issue of a summons. Hence time limits are of particular significance since for various reasons substantial delay may occur before it is decided to institute proceedings. The point must also be borne in mind if it is intended at a later date to add further charges.

Laying of the information

Section 127 Magistrates' Court Act 1980 states that for all summary offences the information must be laid within six calendar months of the commission of the offence, except where any other Act expressly provides otherwise.
The following points need to be borne in mind:

• It is not necessary for the information to be personally received by a justice or by the clerk. It is enough that it is received by a member of his staff impliedly authorised to receive it. In R -v- Pontypridd Juvenile Court ex p B [1988] CLR 842 it was held that an information could be laid by being input into a terminal at a police station of a computer system which was linked to the court, even though it was not printed out at the court end until later.
• In computing the limitation period the day on which the offence was committed is not included.
• So long as the information is laid within six months, the issue and service of the summons and the subsequent determination may all occur outside that period.
• Laying an information within the six months' time limit before deciding whether or not to prosecute may result in the proceedings being stayed as an abuse of process; see R -v- Brentford Magistrates' Court ex parte Wong [1981] 1 All ER 884.

The six months' time limit applies to most summary road traffic offences, but statutory exceptions do occur. In particular:

• Section 24 RTOA 1988; and
• Section 6 RTOA 1988.

Exceptions to the six month time limit

Section 6 provides a special time limit for offences listed in Column 3, Schedule 1 RTOA 1988, and for aiding and abetting those offences. When it applies, proceedings must be brought within six months from the date on which sufficient evidence came to the knowledge of the prosecutor to warrant proceedings; but must not be brought more than three years after the commission of the offence in any event.
Section 6 applies to the following offences under the RTA:

• driving after making a false declaration as to physical fitness [section 92(10)]
• failing to notify Secretary of State of onset or deterioration of disability [section 94(3)]
• driving after such a failure
• driving after refusal of licence under section 92 or 93 (section 94A)
• failure to surrender licence following revocation (section 99)
• obtaining driving licence, or driving, whilst disqualified [section 103(1)]
• using an uninsured motor vehicle (section 143)
• making a false statement to obtain a driving licence or certificate of insurance (section 174)
• issuing false documents (section 175).