0870 Numbers make Millions for Govt Agencies.

pricefighter

This article published in this morning Daily Telegraph shows how Joe Public are filling the coffers of Govt Agencies,and telephone suppliers by having to call 0870 numbers.

Read https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/16/nhelp16.xml&ssheet=/news/2005/07/16/1xhome.html.

IvanOpinion

Can we totally ignore the use of 0870 for the disaster contact line following the London bombings which was an obvious 'fubar' by the government? I was going to ask for a thread I started in DT to get moved here but since this one has been started I will tag my comments onto it.


There is a lot of momentum behind a campaign to stop the use of 0870 numbers which seems to get Martins approval but is it as plain cut as simply getting rid of 0870 numbers. Is the campaign so embedded in its 'cause' it is losing sight of the bigger picture?

I would definitely agree on not using 0870 numbers for sales lines and certain types of information lines but in other cases I believe that 0870 is the fairest way of dealing with certain tasks. Some examples include:

- in years gone by many places would supply information, to do this they requested that people supplied them with an SAE. Nobody complained about this therefore is the 0870 cost not the technological equivalent of an SAE. I know stuff could be sent by email but not everybody has access to this

- the tax payer is demanding more cost effective government. It costs large sums of money to provide all the information people demand therefore is it not in the tax payers benefit to try to provide this as a self-financing service. This has been made worse by the FOI Act that entitles people to request pretty much any information they want - the problem is that the 'dumb' in society are already abusing this(it is incredible how many mega-important requests for information disappear when the requestor is told it is going to cost them money). Should taxes be raised and benefits cut to finance requests for information?

- many companies try to provide goods as cheaply as possible to ensure a competitive edge in the market. They therefore have no contingency built into the prices to provide support which means it is provided by a self financing 0870 number. The only alternative would be to raise the prices and provide an 0800 number - but why should the majority of people that do not need extra support have to pay for those people who can't be bothered to read instructions or cannot follow instructions.


I think that 0870 has a usefulness however I think the charging structure should be changed so that it is only the cost of a local call while being on hold and then the 0870 charges kick-in when the person is connected to an actual operator.

Ivan

April2

You've missed the point. Ignoring the matter of 'call packages' ('free' calls to all 01/02 numbers at certain times) for which some people pay, the issue is the covert nature of 0870 charges - most people believe 'calls charged at national rate' statements and that they're only paying the same as for calls to 01/02 numbers.

'09xx' numbers at varying prices - anything from 5p/minute to £1.50/minute are available - could (honestly) be used in all the above circumstances.

bunking_off

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of 0870 numbers, I did find BT's taking of the moral high ground somewhat amusing.

Fact is, they have a very limited share of the 0870 termination market because they're not particularly competitive in this area. On calls to 0870 numbers from their customers (where they have a dominant market position), they get only a regulated retention for the use of their network.

However, on the geographic alternative, they have huge market share on terminating calls because they own the lines. Also, on calls to geographic numbers from their customers, they retain far more of the revenues.

Hmmm....wonder why BT feel that 0870 is a market that should be withdrawn? For the greater good of society, or their profit & loss account?

I do think 0870 has a place, where customers have an alternative. For example, if your bank uses an 0870 number, vote with your feet. However, there is an argument to say that Government shouldn't use them. Set against this, the Driving Standards Agency example in the article is a good one : their only income source is from test fees....so you have a choice - accept 0870 numbers to contact them, or accept that test fees will rise to cover the cost of answering calls.

April2, you're right about lack of information. Which is why hopefully Ofcom will mandate pricing info alongside published 0870 numbers (I do hope they don't foist a requirement to preamble calls with a pricing announcement on us, because that'll impose a disproportionate network cost - the cost will be on the originating network as only they know the pricing, but the benefit of the market is for the terminating network, so it could actually result in some networks simply barring 0870 numbers). There shouldn't really be any 5ppm numbers in 090, because it's targeted at >10ppm, but some have crept in, which breaks the integrity of the plan.

April2

bunking_off wrote:

..... the Driving Standards Agency example in the article is a good one : their only income source is from test fees....so you have a choice - accept 0870 numbers to contact them, or accept that test fees will rise to cover the cost of answering calls

Why?

What did they do before they started using 0870? If they used part of their 'income' from test fees, why can't they do that now? What* has changed?

* The answer is a stealthy way to extract money from punters was offered on a plate and they grabbed it with both hands.

bbb_uk

IvanOpinion wrote:

...I think that 0870 has a usefulness however I think the charging structure should be changed so that it is only the cost of a local call while being on hold and then the 0870 charges kick-in when the person is connected to an actual operator.

That is why they should be classed as low (or something similar) premium rate numbers. That way everyone is aware that premium rate numbers vary in cost depending on network.

The 0870 is, by definition, a premium rate number but the companies lie and say that they are 'national' rate. Therefore, people ringing them think they are national rate and therefore ringing from a mobile wont cost that much more. In reality (as lately been in the press), it can cost upto 4/5 times as much.

I would be happy if the OfCOM re-classified these as (mini) premium rate and therefore were forced to abide by premium rate guidelines which mean the price has to clearly be marked. The likely length of the call (if known) and you do not get charged for being in a queue as they can't keep you in a queue.

The government and most companies are actually using these to gain revenue (which if fine) but they are being deceitful and basically lying. Hence the reason why they are frightenend to admit that calls cost upto 8ppm and instead most companies still say national rate or omit the cost.

I know OfCOM (only took them over a year to realise this) are planning on removing the misleading 'local' and 'national' descriptions and possibly make the companies say they cost 8ppm and rates may vary from other providers but what OfCOM aren't thinking of is that because most of the general public have associated 0870 (for years and years) as being 'national' and will therefore assume they cost the same as a national call from a mobile.

You may not be aware of this but under the network license, the networks are under an obligation to ensure that calling costs are clearly advertised. Which the networks do for geographical calls but when it comes to all NGN's (084x/087x), you'll find it extremely difficult to get the true cost of ringing these numbers. Try visiting all the networks websites and see if they inform you of the cost of these calls for all (or even some) of their price plans they have available. In fact some networks still describe these as 'national' rate but yet dont charge the same as a national rate geographical call and don't make it very clear (in most cases) of the cost of these 08xx calls.

Therefore, the networks are secretley cashing in on these numbers and only recently has it come to light.

I believe that OfCOM should force the network to display clearly what they charge for calls to NGN's same as they do for geographical calls because NGN's numbers are more commonly used than geographical numbers now.

UPDATE:

I agree with April2 about the Driving Standards Agency. What did they do beforehand and more importingly did the cost of test fees decrease when they introduced the revenue-generating 0870? It should of because they were receiving some of the income they need from this number (£1.5 million in a year) as well now. I believe you know the answer to that. In a nutshell, if the DSA are correct and it reduced their costs then therefore the test fees could be reduced accordingly!

bunking_off

April2 wrote:

What did they do before they started using 0870? If they used part of their 'income' from test fees, why can't they do that now? What* has changed?

* The answer is a stealthy way to extract money from punters was offered on a plate and they grabbed it with both hands.

Well not being an expert on the accounts of the DSA I can't answer that one. However, given that fundamentally they're currently self-funded, make no profit and pay no money out into government coffers, the answer must be one or more of the following;

a) The service in the past was awful and you'd struggle to speak to them on the phone. It's a long time since I passed my test, but there was certainly elements of this in those days....you filled in your paperwork and turned up when you were due. A call to the office generally went unanswered.

b) The service has got a lot more inefficient and the staff have inflated salaries, hence costs have risen markedly to use up the 0870 revenues. I don't think that's realistically the case in many branches of the civil service.

c) In the past money did come from central government. If this was the case then I think it's reasonable to substitute my tax £££s with revenue from callers who are actually using the DSA's services.

d) The test fees haven't risen by as much as they would have in absence of the 0870 revenues.

I believe the point is, on calls to government services, there fundamentally isn't a profit being made. At best, the retention from 0870 are being used to part fund the cost of answering the call (the agency would get perhaps £3/hr...that's probably approx 1/7 of how much it costs to man the phone). Now, if the relevant agency didn't have the 0870 revenues, there are only four options;

1) They'd have to be more efficient to compensate for the reduced revenues. In general, I'd applaud this but let's be under no illusions....for a place like the DSA and their likely cost profile, the only way you make reductions is either to make staff redundant or off-shore the call centre.

2) TThey'd have to raise money some other way. For the DSA for example, test fees would rise. For the BBC, the license fee would rise.

3) Tax money is diverted from other causes. If so, perhaps the objectors would like to nominate which public service should have funding withdrawn to make up the 0870 shortfall.

4) Tax is increased. I don't see why my tax bill should go up to fund a service that I don't use. Actually, that's not accurate. I don't mind it going up so that e.g. GPs are adequately funded and don't use 0870 numbers, or similar for the DSS etc. I do mind it going up to fund "elective" departments....no-one is forced to call the DSA, it isn't mandatory in life to have a driving license, and even if it was there are other ways of contacting them. Similarly, no-one is forced to ring the BBC.

It's very easy to make trite statements that government agencies shouldn't use 0870 numbers. What's more difficult is to explain where the money's going to come from instead.

Of course, in saying all of this I fully agree that there should be more transparency of the pricing of these calls.

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

...It's very easy to make trite statements that government agencies shouldn't use 0870 numbers. What's more difficult is to explain where the money's going to come from instead

In principle that makes sense but what did all these government agencies do beforehand? I haven't noticed anything better come from the use of these numbers as everything still rises in cost to us - nothing has come down in price because now they gaining extra revenue.

I agree about the DSA that is a one-off agency that once you pass your test are unlikely to ring again and it isn't government funded but again how has this extra money (£1.5 million) benefited us?

bunking_off wrote:

...Of course, in saying all of this I fully agree that there should be more transparency of the pricing of these calls.

Do you think that because for years now 0870 has been associated with a normal national call, that OfCOM should force companies that when they display the cost of the call from a landline, that they mention "calls to networks maybe significantly higher" (or something along those lines)?

My concern (as mentioned elsewhere) is that most people are still going to think that calls to 0870 from a mobile are charged at that networks national rate and not at 4/5 times higher.

My problem is that I don't like seeing people get ripped off especially when its done quietly behind their back (ie with 0870 being described as national or not mentioning their true call costs) despite the many times that I've been asked to increase my prices as I cant be making a profit at all. Even when offered more money I decline on fear of me thinking I'm robbing them. lol.

(FYI - I build/fix computers)

bunking_off

bbb_uk wrote:

I haven't noticed anything better come from the use of these numbers as everything still rises in cost to us - nothing has come down in price because now they gaining extra revenue.

Well, unless there's someone stood outside the building burning 5 pound notes, prices/taxes must have fallen relative to what they would have been. They're getting extra revenue, they don't make any profit. Short of burning the money it must be going somewhere...

bbb_uk wrote:

Do you think that because for years now 0870 has been associated with a normal national call, that OfCOM should force companies that when they display the cost of the call from a landline, that they mention "calls to networks maybe significantly higher" (or something along those lines)?

Yes, something along that lines. The norm on 09 is to state the BT tariff (which is what the vast majority of customers still pay....more fool them for not switching provider!) and to say "calls from other networks may vary - check with your provider". Short of having a note that takes up a whole page setting out each tariff for each provider (keeping in mind mobiles have a labyrinth of prices), that's all that can be done really. You can't say "higher" because from some networks it may not be....even with the "maybe" in your wording it'd still end up with an almighty dispute.

pricefighter

The ASA have in fact suggested/advised what copy should be put against NGN numbers. I think in the case of 0870 it goes something like this.(Calls can cost up to 8p a minute,and can be dearer from a mobile.Please check with your mobile supplier for rates).

bbb_uk

bunking_off wrote:

...They're getting extra revenue, they don't make any profit. Short of burning the money it must be going somewhere..

I could think of someplaces but that would mean starting a whole new thread and possibly have to be placed in the vent section. lol :rotfl: :j