Energy Performance Certificates

chriserenity

Gorgeous_George wrote: »

Monkey see, monkey do.

NuLabour jobs for jobs sake.

GG

If you are implying EPCs are simply a job created by the government so they can brandish a flag saying "we did this look, now we're closer to full employment" then IMO you are missing the bigger picture.

And if it were a case of monkey see monkey do then there would be a 100% pass rate on the (quality) training courses wouldn't there? This is hardly the case. On my course alone 7 people either failed the exams or the 'portfolio' of work they had to prepare didn't meet the national occupational standards for DEAs. In case you were wondering these 7 people weren't exactly thickies.

Don't get me wrong, EPCs are hardly rocket science but neither are they monkey see monkey do.

Jorgan_2

Originally Posted by Gorgeous George
How long before Rogue Traders task different assessors, charging different fees, to assess the same house.

chriserenity wrote: »

To what end? I can't see a circumstance where this would happen.

What about when the energy assessors assume a number of things when carrying out their inspection?

I have seen a number of reports where houses built in the last couple of years have received scores similar to houses that are 25 years old, not double-glazed, no condensing boiler etc. On the older houses the assessor has made assumptions on all forms of insulation. According to two vendor's, they never even went into the loft.

chappers

chriserenity wrote: »

Actually I've seen EPCs advertised for lower than £55 but thats to US the inspectors. The public would obviously pay more with the middle man/men making a profit. I think the thing to bear in mind here is that the quality of assessors varies quite alot. The DEA training industry is poorly regulated and attracts people from various backgrounds. Consequently you get DEAs who are also chartered surveyors and structural engineers who are obviously well trained to perform
certain aspects of the EPC, but you also get the people who could afford the training but don't know the difference between a purlin and a rafter or a cavity wall and a solid wall and still don't after they are trained. I.e. they plumped for a low cost sub standard training scheme. Quality inspectors are doing most of their work for between £80 and £150 which is a fair price considering the work involved in doing the job PROPERLY.

The reason I asked about this is; does it really matter to me as a vendor, to be honest I don't really care, as long as the EPC has been compiled by an accredited assessor I have fulfilled my legal requirement, so surely the cheaper the better.

mdj1

I've not read this whole thread, but as a tennant i feel very lucky.

We have really good double glazing, the walls have been cavity filled. There is a thick layer of insulation in the loft and the inside of the roofiing felt has been sprayed with some sort of foam. The house is about 25 years old, the only thing it really needs is a more modern boiler and a new hot water tank.

It stays very warm, we dont really have the thermostat above 17.

Its a three bed detached (although big enough to be a four) 105 sq metres approx and my last gas bill for three months for10th Aug - 9th Nov was £66.56 and we used 62 units.

scrummy_mummy_2

chriserenity wrote: »

You've hit the nail on the head! This is the fundamental problem with the way EPCs are going to be implemented for the vast majority of landlords - EPC is required, EPC is done, shows the property as being horribly inefficient so it goes in a drawer for 10 years and is dusted off every 6 months or so. Any work done is not reflected in the report unless the landlord pays AGAIN to reproducee the EPC showing the improvements made.

Suffice to say we're not doing EPCs like this now for landlords and don't plan to after October either as its a complete waste of time for tenant and landlord.

OK...I have re-read the whole thread again, carfefully and still have a couple of questions based on your rather excellent, comprehensive responses to each point...thank you for them all by the way as they are brilliant! Well done and this thread should probably become a sticky as I'm sure there will be loads more questions as the EPC (nonsense) becomes more well known about over the coming months.

1. You haven't said what the 'penalty' is for me as a LL not getting one after 01 October 08. (except that any prospective tenant may request to see it as they become more well known, and that I need one if I sell the house, which I don't intend to do!)...there don't appear to be any sanctions for non compliance???...if it is a legal requirement I would expect it to be be backed up with a fine/jail/hanging/crucifiction/stoning/week in the stocks:rotfl:

2. You state above that you don't intend to do EPC's like this for Landlords....what sort of EPC process do you plan to do for Landlords then?

3. What timelines are associated with the 'legislation'? For example, if my current tenant moves out on 01 October and I begin a new tenancy on 03 October and try to get the EPC done during my 'empty' period but can't because there aren't enough EPC qualified inspectors to do the job, then the new tenant, once in residence, refuses me entry for half a day 'poking about the house' without him being present, to get the EPC report complied...how is that handled?......all sounds a bit to vague to me and not completely thought through. As a tenant I would be miffed if my LL expected me to take a day's annual leave to be present for some stupid report to be compiled and they are legally entitled to refuse entry if it interferes with their quiet enjoyment of the property...how does the legislation cope with that?....It would appear that the EPC is required for every LL at the time a new tenancy is granted but what if a LL can't organise the logistics or are refused access?

I'm not trying to be difficult with you because I genuinely think the advice you have given is top drawer, I am just trying to understand the practical implications for us landlords and the likely management issues this could present us with!...or perhaps it hasn't been thought through properly...what do you think?

speedtwin

I think its best for L/L's to organise ASAP you have 7 months to do it.
Also there will be a rush on come the deadline and if you do it now you may find a inpector who doesnt charge VAT.

chriserenity

scrummy_mummy wrote: »

1. You haven't said what the 'penalty' is for me as a LL not getting one after 01 October 08. (except that any prospective tenant may request to see it as they become more well known, and that I need one if I sell the house, which I don't intend to do!)...there don't appear to be any sanctions for non compliance???...if it is a legal requirement I would expect it to be be backed up with a fine/jail/hanging/crucifiction/stoning/week in the stocks:rotfl:

I am unsure of the penalty. With the deadline for legal compliance so far off I haven’t asked about it. There is no specific guidance on the CLG website regarding penalties for EPC non-compliance so I assume rental EPCs fall under the HIP regulations and so trading standards may be responsible for enforcement with the same penalties employed. I will check with them on Monday to see if this is the case and post my findings here.

scrummy_mummy wrote: »

3. What timelines are associated with the 'legislation'? For example, if my current tenant moves out on 01 October and I begin a new tenancy on 03 October and try to get the EPC done during my 'empty' period but can't because there aren't enough EPC qualified inspectors to do the job, then the new tenant, once in residence, refuses me entry for half a day 'poking about the house' without him being present, to get the EPC report complied...how is that handled?......all sounds a bit to vague to me and not completely thought through. As a tenant I would be miffed if my LL expected me to take a day's annual leave to be present for some stupid report to be compiled and they are legally entitled to refuse entry if it interferes with their quiet enjoyment of the property...how does the legislation cope with that?....It would appear that the EPC is required for every LL at the time a new tenancy is granted but what if a LL can't organise the logistics or are refused access?

I'm not trying to be difficult with you because I genuinely think the advice you have given is top drawer, I am just trying to understand the practical implications for us landlords and the likely management issues this could present us with!...or perhaps it hasn't been thought through properly...what do you think?

I agree it hasn't been thought through properly especially in terms of getting letting agents and landlords on board with the scheme. The situation is growing similar to the introduction of HIPs when many estate agents felt alienated by the implementation of the scheme.

In terms of the specific requirement I took this from the CLG website:

The EPC and recommendation report must be made available free of charge by the landlord to a prospective tenant at the earliest opportunity and no later than:

• when any written information about the building is provided in response to a request for information received from the prospective tenant; or
• when a viewing is conducted; or
• if neither of those occur, before entering into a contract to let.

I can tell you that there is currently an oversupply of people accredited to carry out EPCs with many DEAs/HIs with no work or having to supplement their incomes with second jobs because EPC work is so thinly spread. As to whether enough individuals will have drifted away from the profession by October in search of more stable earnings creating an under-supply situation, I don't know.

As you can see from the above regs it seems that legally the contract to let cannot be finalised until the EPC is available meaning organising the EPC last minute could result in lost rent and possibly a lost tenant depending on whether the tenant is prepared to wait until the EPC is produced.

As I said, we do not intend to create situations like this by producing EPCs in this way.

scrummy_mummy wrote: »

2. You state above that you don't intend to do EPC's like this for Landlords....what sort of EPC process do you plan to do for Landlords then?

I'd rather not discuss it on an open forum, indeed I don't think it would be allowed! If you pm me your email address I would be happy to send details of our 'EPC Advance' alternative to you.

scrummy_mummy_2

chriserenity...thanks for your help...I have PM'd you

chriserenity

As promised here is the link to the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive regulations governing EPCs. The enforcement rules and guidelines are in section 7.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20070991_en_1

speedtwin

Bloody hell that was some heavy duty reading