how do i retrain the bf?? and any ideas for the dog!

MrsTinks

Georgina wrote: »

I think it's more likely that it's the training and consistency (from sammy-kaye) that's working, rather than being "pack leader". The Dominance Theory - the one where you have to be pack leader over your dog has been debunked by many eminent canine behaviourists and also revoked by the original researchers.

And how often do you see a low ranking pack member boss around the higher ranking pack members?

It is nothing to do with a dominace theory it's called looking at what dogs do naturally in a pack if not interfered with by humans and they work very efficiently because everyone in the pack have their place. And training and consistency is a huge part of that!
Since getting our rescue dog (which I have posted about on here numerous times) I have tried different training methods and that includes the so called dog whisperer Jan Fennel. Sorry but I don't like her methods in the least. Same for your box standard training of sit, heel etc dealing with dog behaviour problems.
Consistency is a must certainly, but by being consistent you become the top dog or pack leader. I happily admit to using Cesar Milan's methods where I feel they are appropriate (no my dog doesn't go on a tread mill before anyone asks) and I have a happy content dog who was borderline for being allowed to be rehomed again after being returned to the RSPCA untrained, dog aggressive, destructive and frankly a nightmare.
I went through the "the poor dog" syndrome and pampered and petted her to make up for her hard start in life and she walked all over us. I did training with her and she did what she had to for the reward and that was it.
Now she's content with her place, she's converted a deeply dog phobic friend who now takes her jogging several times a week for company and she's a safe family pet.

On another note I'd love to read some of the articles you mention about the disproved research, because I think it's always possible to learn more and maybe they have some interesting points!

So is being the "dominant" member of the pack a riddiculous theory? Come meet my dog and I'll let you judge

WeirdoMagnet

I'm with you on Jan Fennell - what a load of rubbish she spouts! Here's a good article that you'll like! But then again I can't stand CM, and would never advise anyone to use his flawed methods either!

There are quite a few articles about why the dominance theory is flawed, with research carried out by people like Ray Coppinger, Ian Dunbar and I think Jean Donaldson. Even the esteemed John Fisher changed his mind before he died in the 1990s. Here are a couple of articles that I like as a starting point. Is Your Dog The Pack Leader?, and The History & Misconceptions of the Dominance Theory.

The thing for me is, that although dogs may be pack animals when they live in the wild, over many years, we've bred them for certain characteristics and domesticated them. We have regular meals, and a consistently a nice place to live. Our dogs are (mostly) neutered, so they're not having to 'fight' for breeding rights.

I guess we're always the 'leader' in as much as we control when and what our dogs eat, when we walk, when we play etc, so I don't think you have to do anything else to prove that you are the leader.

Our (also rescue) dog is 'pampered'. She walks through doorways before us, and indeed we've encouraged her to do that (for us with a small, fast dog that's easier for us to see where she is!). She sometimes eats before us, sometimes after. We have cuddle sessions, and 'rough' play sessions, sometimes initiated by her, sometimes by us. She goes on the sofa, sleeps on the bed and is sat on my lap right now. But not because she's dominant, or trying to be dominant over me. Just because it's the warmest, comfiest place to sit. She has an excellent standard of obedience, mostly taught by clicker training, but always taught using positive methods, (varying the value of the reward, dependent on the response, so the dog learns to respond to the command, rather than do it for the treat). Like your dog, shes converted people, she goes everywhere with us and takes it all in her stride. What I'm trying to say is, that other than training her what I would like her to do, I don't do anything (like sitting in her bed, jerking her on a lead etc etc) to reinforce myself as the 'leader'.

MrsTinks

Just wanted to add I dont sit my dogs bed either lol! hardly any room in it with all her stuffed toys she insists on dragging in there!
Will have a look at those articles
And as for CM then I was very sceptical too but the more I watched the more he made sense. I was finally convinced to try his methods when they showed a dog which i would call "severely dangerous" and he had it under control in minutes. Yeah I know there is cutting and editing, but the body language the dog portrayed can't lie.

Anyway shan't try and convert you But I find his methods work and so long as the dog is happy and content and not a danger to anyone then I think that's the most important.

Again thanks for the links I'll have a read this weekend!

ZootHornRollo

Georgina wrote: »

I'm with you on Jan Fennell - what a load of rubbish she spouts! Here's a good article that you'll like! But then again I can't stand CM, and would never advise anyone to use his flawed methods either!

There are quite a few articles about why the dominance theory is flawed, with research carried out by people like Ray Coppinger, Ian Dunbar and I think Jean Donaldson. Even the esteemed John Fisher changed his mind before he died in the 1990s. Here are a couple of articles that I like as a starting point. Is Your Dog The Pack Leader?, and The History & Misconceptions of the Dominance Theory.

The thing for me is, that although dogs may be pack animals when they live in the wild, over many years, we've bred them for certain characteristics and domesticated them. We have regular meals, and a consistently a nice place to live. Our dogs are (mostly) neutered, so they're not having to 'fight' for breeding rights.

I guess we're always the 'leader' in as much as we control when and what our dogs eat, when we walk, when we play etc, so I don't think you have to do anything else to prove that you are the leader.

Our (also rescue) dog is 'pampered'. She walks through doorways before us, and indeed we've encouraged her to do that (for us with a small, fast dog that's easier for us to see where she is!). She sometimes eats before us, sometimes after. We have cuddle sessions, and 'rough' play sessions, sometimes initiated by her, sometimes by us. She goes on the sofa, sleeps on the bed and is sat on my lap right now. But not because she's dominant, or trying to be dominant over me. Just because it's the warmest, comfiest place to sit. She has an excellent standard of obedience, mostly taught by clicker training, but always taught using positive methods, (varying the value of the reward, dependent on the response, so the dog learns to respond to the command, rather than do it for the treat). Like your dog, shes converted people, she goes everywhere with us and takes it all in her stride. What I'm trying to say is, that other than training her what I would like her to do, I don't do anything (like sitting in her bed, jerking her on a lead etc etc) to reinforce myself as the 'leader'.

interesting articles.

i have to say i don't entirely agree but the principle is good.

i think there is a certain amount of truth in the existance of the pack but only so much as to establish yourself as the leader you expect certain behaviours much in the same way as a parent expects certain behaviours from their child.

i don't feel i need to dominate my dogs by rolling them over or making them walk behind me but i do expect them to wait at door ways etc so i can go through first and then call the dog through. so long as you insist on basic good manners you should become senior to the dog.

Raksha

Training dogs (and boyfriends/OHs/bosses) - Don't shoot the dog, a book by Karen Pryor -think you'll find most of your answers in there........