My Redundancy

dfarry

Hi all... I have been verbally told by my manager today (I was out of the office) that my job is at risk and likely to be redundant... upto around another 30 are in the process of being told the same thing.... this is in a company of around 150 staff....so it is a very big thing.

In my department of 5 colleagues, myself and another are at risk apparently.

Tomorrow I will be going to the office to get the notice and see what it states... I think the criteria that they have used for selection will be very dubious!! I'll post the basic text here too....once I have it.

My boss said that next Thursday (1 week) I will know if I am to be made redundant and then likely receive a one month notification period before leaving...

Anyway a couple of things initially spring to mind....

I have read the various conditions in the ACAS redundancy pages and in most cases I think my company has it covered but...

My boss said... the first he had any idea...and knew names...was about two weeks ago.... should he have immediately informed the staff concerned or the team generally and can he be held to this? Coincidently on the 8th June the HR managed called and asked "What exactly is your job title" which I thought was strange but as the title has changed over the years I emailed this too her based on what was on my last appraisal. This does not in itself prove anything but I do at the very least believe redundancies were on the cards at least 3 weeks ago but staff were not consulted until today.

If more than 20 people are to be made redundant then the DTI must be informed as well as staff.... is there anyway I can check this has been done...if not is this likely to impact the 1 week + 1 month period that I now in effect have to serve.

My boss did say that I could have some time off if I wanted to just to sort things out... should I be careful about this apparent generous offer of "Free time" or continue to work as normal.... I do not want any final pay to be deducted in anyway by them.

Presumably at the end of the notice period I will receive a final salary payment...is this likely to be free of tax? My company only pays statutory redundancy....does this follow a few weeks after so in the interim period you are expected to find a new job or use benefits.

And the biggies for me.....
I will presumably see tomorrow how the decision and selection was made.... but my job still exists... and once I'm gone no one else will be able to do it...plus they can't just bring in someone else can they? Maybe 6 months it may be different and they could have issued a 6 month consultation...but as it stands I don't know how they will manage.

Also the company in effect supports a smaller subsidiary in which they are still employing new staff...these are potentially similar roles to what I am doing so why are they not trying to reassign staff over.... I believe it is simply to cut costs without the hassles of trying to protect salaries or positions....and simply moving out the faces that no longer fit.

My boss said next Thursday I could nominate someone to join me at the meeting but he was not aware of the company appointing a employee representative...as we have no trade union representation.... should they have done this as a matter of course.....and should this be in addition to our HR manager (who is completely pro-management anyway)

Having been dealt with in this way after 7 years employment....glowing appraisals....almost zero sickness leave etc... I am very bitter.... and if I have an scope to do so I will take them to an industrial tribunal.... I have no wish to remain employed by them now either....but I really do want to go down fighting...... has anyone had a similar situation and come out of it ok?

I have also read the ACAS document and that was useful but are there any other resources worth checking with? I just want to be sure of my facts before letting rip!

Thanks for any advice

Murtle

I'll try to answer some/all of the questions, but I'll be asking for more info on the way!!

I have been verbally told by my manager today (I was out of the office) that my job is at risk and likely to be redundant... upto around another 30 are in the process of being told the same thing....

Are 30 people due to be "put at risk"? if so, this doesn't automatically mean that 30 will be made redundant. It's just that 30 people will be *up for redundancy*

In my department of 5 colleagues, myself and another are at risk apparently.

Do you all carry out the same function? same job title and same job description? or do you only share these with the other collegue also being put at risk? The reason for the question, if there are 5 people in the department and they need to reduce it by say 1 and you all do the same role then the whole department should be *put at risk*. If only the two of you carry out the same role and they need to reduce by 1 then only the two of you will be put at risk.

If more than 20 people are to be made redundant then the DTI must be informed as well as staff.... is there anyway I can check this has been done...if not is this likely to impact the 1 week + 1 month period that I now in effect have to serve.

Not sure how you would check, but again it would depend on the numbers actually being made redundant not the number being put at risk. If more then 30 people leaving then they have to provide a 30 day consultation period, of which you would be employed so yes it could affect it. If less then 30, then no it wouldn't.

My boss did say that I could have some time off if I wanted to just to sort things out... should I be careful about this apparent generous offer of "Free time" or continue to work as normal.... I do not want any final pay to be deducted in anyway by them.

You are entitled to reasonable time off to look for other roles, internnally or externally. When I was made redundant (they outsourced my job) my manager was so pee'd off he said we could have as much time off as we liked!

Presumably at the end of the notice period I will receive a final salary payment...is this likely to be free of tax? My company only pays statutory redundancy....does this follow a few weeks after so in the interim period you are expected to find a new job or use benefits.

You will receive a final redundancy payment, this is tax free up to £30,000. Sorry I know nothing about benefits.

I will presumably see tomorrow how the decision and selection was made.... but my job still exists... and once I'm gone no one else will be able to do it...plus they can't just bring in someone else can they? Maybe 6 months it may be different and they could have issued a 6 month consultation...but as it stands I don't know how they will manage.

My understanding has always been, that to be put at risk is time they are meant to carry out the selection process. Hence why you are *at risk* being that there is still an air of uncertainty, until you are served final notice - whereby you work your notice and then leave (hope that makes sense). (although it sounds like they may have made their decision if your meeting next Thursday is to be served final notice?? They can't recruit new people to carry out your exact role, but the work load can be shared amongst current staff. They could possibly get away with bringing in a new person on a different job description to carry out *part* of your current role.

Also the company in effect supports a smaller subsidiary in which they are still employing new staff...these are potentially similar roles to what I am doing so why are they not trying to reassign staff over.... I believe it is simply to cut costs without the hassles of trying to protect salaries or positions....and simply moving out the faces that no longer fit.

You should be able to apply for any internal positions. Redundancy can be costly, both in money and moral of staff leaving and those staying.

My boss said next Thursday I could nominate someone to join me at the meeting but he was not aware of the company appointing a employee representative...as we have no trade union representation.... should they have done this as a matter of course.....and should this be in addition to our HR manager (who is completely pro-management anyway)

Depends on how many people are being made redundant from the company. More then 20 then yes I believe they should have, less then that then no. Absolutely in addition to your HR manager. In an ideal world the HR manager is meant to be neutral. The employee rep. is there for you. You are allowed to take a colleague though, but not an external *friend or similar*

Having been dealt with in this way after 7 years employment....glowing appraisals....almost zero sickness leave etc... I am very bitter.... and if I have an scope to do so I will take them to an industrial tribunal.... I have no wish to remain employed by them now either....but I really do want to go down fighting...... has anyone had a similar situation and come out of it ok?

Yes and won, although not through a tribunal.

ACAS are fantastic, I'd recommend phoning them if you get stuck with anything. Really helpful, and on the side of *right*

Also look at

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/redundancy.htm

and

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/redundancy/index/life/employment/redundancy.htm

Good luck, keep calm and pleasant with all until you know the facts (and if possible afterwards too) you never know when you'll meet these people again - unfotunately, cause then you could always walk away

Hope some of that helps anyway?!

dfarry

Hi Murtle...I appreciate your help and have hopefully helped with the extra info...

Are 30 people due to be "put at risk"? if so, this doesn't automatically mean that 30 will be made redundant. It's just that 30 people will be *up for redundancy*

Yes that is true but the nature in which this has done... and the fact that over the past few years I have seen similar events at the company unfold does suggest that redundancy and the cost savings they create is the aim.

Do you all carry out the same function? same job title and same job description? or do you only share these with the other collegue also being put at risk? The reason for the question, if there are 5 people in the department and they need to reduce it by say 1 and you all do the same role then the whole department should be *put at risk*. If only the two of you carry out the same role and they need to reduce by 1 then only the two of you will be put at risk.

No my role is quite specialised...not particualrly hard but it is a niche... I am a techie system admin type person... another person in my department served with a notice is a developer on the system I support, there is a second developer who has not been served with a notice as well as two business analysts......oh and not forgetting our manager! As such a close knit team there is a certain amount of overlap especially into my area but the extent of my skills could not easily and quickly be taken over by anyone else.... As I maintain a business critical system I do feel this action is particulalry foolish.

Not sure how you would check, but again it would depend on the numbers actually being made redundant not the number being put at risk. If more then 30 people leaving then they have to provide a 30 day consultation period, of which you would be employed so yes it could affect it. If less then 30, then no it wouldn't.

I was under the impression it was 20 persons...and then the DTI have to be informed in a month consultation but I may be wrong....will read the ACAS booklet again.

You are entitled to reasonable time off to look for other roles, internnally or externally. When I was made redundant (they outsourced my job) my manager was so pee'd off he said we could have as much time off as we liked!

It looks like my manager will be fairly flexible...it will be hard to summon up the motivation to work for the next few weeks....after being "dumped" on - I may request advanced termination of my job and be paid a month in leiu if that is possible.

You will receive a final redundancy payment, this is tax free up to £30,000. Sorry I know nothing about benefits.

Looks like even with 7 years employment as my company only pays the statutory amount I'd be lucky to get £2000

My understanding has always been, that to be put at risk is time they are meant to carry out the selection process. Hence why you are *at risk* being that there is still an air of uncertainty, until you are served final notice - whereby you work your notice and then leave (hope that makes sense). (although it sounds like they may have made their decision if your meeting next Thursday is to be served final notice?? They can't recruit new people to carry out your exact role, but the work load can be shared amongst current staff. They could possibly get away with bringing in a new person on a different job description to carry out *part* of your current role.

Yes I think they have made up their minds and because my role is fairly generic they could strip off bits of it...but there remain fundamental elements that only I know and anyone brought in to do these tasks would be in effect stepping to my shoes....... poor them

You should be able to apply for any internal positions. Redundancy can be costly, both in money and moral of staff leaving and those staying.

I can't be sure but none have been offered as far as I am aware... even in more general admin type roles

Depends on how many people are being made redundant from the company. More then 20 then yes I believe they should have, less then that then no. Absolutely in addition to your HR manager. In an ideal world the HR manager is meant to be neutral. The employee rep. is there for you. You are allowed to take a colleague though, but not an external *friend or similar*

Sorry I referred to the DTI ting above...I do have some fanstic colleagues though (thats the sad thing about leaving)...and I'm sure I'll be able to rely on one to help support me

Yes and won, although not through a tribunal.

Good for you!!

ACAS are fantastic, I'd recommend phoning them if you get stuck with anything. Really helpful, and on the side of *right*

Also look at

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/redundancy.htm

and

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/redundancy/index/life/employment/redundancy.htm

Good luck, keep calm and pleasant with all until you know the facts (and if possible afterwards too) you never know when you'll meet these people again - unfotunately, cause then you could always walk away

Hope some of that helps anyway?!

Yes you have indeed helped...cheers...I will try to stay calm but with emotions running high I may not be my usual composed self.

Squiffy

You mentioned a subsidiary company that was hiring?

Your employer has an obligation to try and find you alternative employment within the company. (I'm not sure how enforceable this obligation is - try and speak to CAB maybe to find out more). Why not find out what vacancies are available, and apply for any that are suitable?

If the new job is classed as a suitable alternative, then your salary and other terms & conditions would be maintained.

Murtle

They aren't outsourcing are they??!!

Good luck today and let us know how you get on.

Unfortunately in your department you are the only one doing your role, so they can put you at risk on your own. Sounds like another company I know

Murtle

I was under the impression it was 20 persons...and then the DTI have to be informed in a month consultation but I may be wrong....will read the ACAS booklet again.

Sorry yes it is - apologies for the confusion!!!

Murtle

the *looking* the company I worked for did, was told us to look on the intranet at the job site!!! Apparently this was sufficient.

Also please note, the redundancy has been one of the best things to happen to me! It really can be an opener, not a closer and I'm the better for having left.

dfarry

I've had my meeting... took ages as I asked lots of questions...

I've got some minutes so will when I get a mo summarise what has been done... overall and despite everything I am feeling pretty positive

Murtle

Excellent, glad today was ok, and really pleased that you are feeling positive. Will read your notes once you've done.

(there are different emotions you may feel going through redundancy, at different times....don't worry if that happens, you're not going mad and you'll come out the other end smelling of roses!)

dfarry

Hi again..here's a copy of the letter..... HERE....but removed anything specifically personal or named... but you get the basic idea. (its 350kb)

Of the three points listed to justify the redundancy there was much discussion. As far as I am concerned my role is not imminently redundant... over a course of months may be the role could be absorbed but as it stands the skills do not exist to perform this function elsewhere.

I asked on what basis it had been decided that my work could be absorbed but these answers were not forthcoming... it does seem that someone... well in fact it was around 30 people had to go and I was one of those LUCKY ones.

As it stands I think there is a case for appeal and I will be speaking to ACAS tomorrow... but really I think even if I was reinstated it would be shortlived.

I will only be paid statutory redundancy pay but this will be topped up by a final tax free monthly salary...so I will have enough money to provide for things for two months at the very least.... but I do have blossoming opportunites now so I am considering taking the redundancy payment and running.

Certainly after today the company was a shadow of it's former self... I am not sure what the future hold but I am very concerned for my colleagues who I believe will now leave of their own accord. It was like walking around a ghost town... I was actually feeling pretty good and positive... most of those staying looked like they had just been to a funeral

Busy day tomorrow....first day in the search for a new job!! lots of agencies to call...CV's to update....finances to review

CrazyIndianZA

Mate,

I have been there before. There is a good way and a bad way to take it. It is very stressful I will admit but be positive and don't take it too personally. it is very much the "new" economy. Always keep a uptodate cv ready....