'Hugh's Chicken Run' A Moral Dilemna for DFWs?

Shineyhappy

star-X wrote: »

Shiney, could you tell me more about the milk situation please, im sorry im taking over the thread asking questions and commenting xxxx

Well cows only produce milk to feed their calf, so farmers obviously have to get the cows pregnant and then what happens to the offspring when its born?

http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=98

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/supermarkets/pages/farm-animals/dairy.asp

"Most dairy cows in the supermarket supply chain are Holsteins, bred for high milk yields but also associated with lameness and mastitis. Thought unprofitable for beef production, their male calves are often exported to continental veal farms or shot at birth"

Why go organic?
http://www.omsco.co.uk/index.cfm/organicmilk/WhyOrganic.AnimalWelfare

Organic Milk and Animal Welfare

Comfortable, contented cows live longer, healthier lives and are the aim of every organic farmer.
Feeding

Organic cows are not fed and managed in ways that attempt to push them into production levels beyond their natural capacity. Organic farmers believe that the stress imposed on animals by unnatural and intensive regimes such as feeding high levels of inappropriate protein to stimulate rapid growth or milk production, intensive housing or the routine use of antibiotics and other drugs can all cause health problems. No GM, urea, solvent or animal derived foods are permitted. BSE is thought to have resulted from the feeding of animal products. There has never been a case of BSE in an organic born and raised dairy cow.
Housing


Organic cows are outside in the natural light as much as possible but most dairy herds are brought in during the winter when the grass stops growing and the weather becomes cold and wet. Organic cows are housed in covered yards or cubicles and must be given adequate clean, comfortable bedding. This is not a requirement for non-organic cows.
Calves naturally seek to groom one another so on organic farms calves must be kept together in social groups. On non-organic farms calves may be kept in single pens which is unnatural and restricts their development.
Managing Disease


Unlike non-organic farmers, organic farmers use homeopathic and herbal medicines successfully in the treatment of disease, only resorting to vaccines and antibiotics when the situation demands and not as a matter of course. Growth hormones, used in some countries (but illegal in the UK), to make animals grow faster, are not given to organically-reared animals.
On a non-organic farm, mastitis (an udder infection) is prevented by the routine use of antibiotics. Organic farmers prevent this disease more naturally by using measures such as cutting down feed to encourage the milk supply to dry up naturally and removing visual stimulants by keeping the cow out of sight of the milking parlour.

sleepymy

In_Search_Of_Me wrote: »

shinehappy what about making mayo?

http://vegetarian.about.com/od/saucesdipsspreads/r/eggfreemayo.htm

There are plenty of egg free recipes on google.

ZTD

pania wrote: »

Aye,but animals are acting on animal instinct, following their natural reactions, a human has a choice whether to pull the trigger that ends someones life. whether to torture their prisoner or drop bombs that decimate the town it falls on, unselectively. very much like the fox going into a feeding frenzy and unselectively killing chickens. the difference is in knowing right and wrong and exercising choice.

Never ever think that animal are just a blind bundle of instincts - they have feelings, values and make choices just like people. It's just people's hubris that denies that.

I saw a wildlife programme once about a pride of lions. The lionesses were doing the hunting (as usual) and a set of hyenas were annoying them, mobbing a lioness and stealing the meat. Lions are strong, but hyenas are faster. Then one time just after the rains, the hyenas did it again. Except this time, one of them ran into a muddy field. The mud slowed it right down. The lioness also entered this muddy field and was bogged down. But lions are strong - *very* strong. With every muscle suddenly standing up, this lioness bounded through the quagmire and caught up with the hyena.

She could have killed it. She had every right to kill it - direct competitor for food, had been exceedingly annoying, and it had actually stolen food from her. Instead she nipped it time and again. The yelps were very loud, so it wasn't gentle. Then she left it. And it went away knowing it had been given a good hiding, and knowing it had been damn lucky.

She had the motive, the means and the opportunity, but still hadn't pulled the trigger. That was her choice.

pania wrote: »

forgive ignorance, what happened at darfur? any chance of a linky?

Try this and work around the links.

pania wrote: »

Sadly tis true. Is why you get kobi beef in restaurants, animal is provided completely clean bedding, massaged and groomed every day and have aromatherapy oils burnt in their stable and ambient music played for a completely stress free life style. Then one day, bang! Is the least marbled most tender meat available apparently. as a result of no stress. Yes this is an extreme but shows a point.

And it also shows something else: Why does it taste better? Our tongues could reject that taste and favour bitter animals which have been stressed - but they don't. It proves that (assuming you believe in Darwin) that man survives better eating healthy animals, than sick ones. And stress is an illness.

pania wrote: »

Aaw zed, surely your cooking isn't that bad!:rotfl:

I've had no training and I've little talent. Resturant food should kick seven shades out of mine. But it doesn't.

pania wrote: »

Hi by the way!:wave:

:kisses3:

Shineyhappy

sleepymy wrote: »

http://vegetarian.about.com/od/saucesdipsspreads/r/eggfreemayo.htm

There are plenty of egg free recipes on google.

Thanks I will definatly try making my own!

I love your signature btw Adora Belle Dearheart is such a fab character!

sleepymy

Shineyhappy wrote: »

Thanks I will definatly try making my own!

I love your signature btw Adora Belle Dearheart is such a fab character!

Heheh, I have to admit to not reading the books. I was likened to her t'other day in a 'debate', when I googled her I was quite happy with the comparison

Shineyhappy

sleepymy wrote: »

Heheh, I have to admit to not reading the books. I was likened to her t'other day in a 'debate', when I googled her I was quite happy with the comparison

Apart from the fact she is a chain smoker and it nearly killed me giving up, I would be flattered to be compared to her:D

neverdespairgirl

Shineyhappy wrote: »

I make my own cakes normally, its just things like mayo, coleslaw and god knows what else!
Bean burgers I bet have a crispy bread crumb coating and Birdeseye veggie fingers, Quorn, bread???? Biscuits?? I am sorry its just you dont always think about these things. It took me ages to work out all the ok veggie foods and now it wil be harder working out the eggs and possibly milk as non organic milk is pretty unethical.

I've rarely eaten ready-made coleslaw, because I think it's vile. My mother makes coleslaw, and I've always just followed her recipe - lovely, and quick.

Veggie burgers are easy to make too, and you can make a load at the same time and freeze them.

fc123

pania wrote: »

HIya Star-X.

The situation with milk is thus.

The cow is put in calf to produce milk.
As soon as the calf is born, it is 9 times out of ten killed and the cow put back into calf at her first season.
The milk extractors (for want of a better term) simulates the calf suckling and as such keeps the cow producing milk.
The calf is a bi product of the industry and if not suitable for meat/ veal production abroad/breeding are shot by the farmer.
The programme i saw showed an industrial skip brim full of day old calf carcasses. the trauma that this must cause the cow is unimaginable. yes i still have milk but am considering alternatives.

I saw "The lie of the land" some time back and the documentary was originally going to be about fox hunting.....but she was shocked at the calves being killed for a pound.

I'm struggling with whole milk thing too.

I confess to buying huge slabs of smart price cheese yet buy expensive organic milk (not supermarket) as the cheese in our farm shop is really dear.

Just saw a bit of Jamie.
The farmer gets 3p for a chicken :eek: 33 chickens to make a quid :eek:

I'm going to UP my commitment to "lowest margin, bare essentials" from my local Asda. They (and the rest) are the the CAUSE of the problem.

I need to hunt down the pet food thread as the cats are TOTALLY eating non-ethically at present.:D

Strapped

star-X wrote: »

Shiney, could you tell me more about the milk situation please, im sorry im taking over the thread asking questions and commenting xxxx

There are some breeds that are good milkers but can be raised for meat too, so the male calves are spared (for a while anyway ). But (a) not easy to source and (b) more expensive than milk from the "best milkers" breeds.

In Ireland, all the male calves from dairy herds are raised for meat so I don't see why the same can't be achieved in the UK. (Family over there farm beef herds, and apparently Belgian Blues are in demand to cross with the milkers because the offspring make decent steaks...)

sleepymy

fc123 wrote: »

I need to hunt down the pet food thread as the cats are TOTALLY eating non-ethically at present.:D

This might help fc http://www.uncaged.co.uk/petfood.htm