TA10 Fixtures and Fitting

Willis75

Completed on a property. TA10 states Fridge/ Freezer to be left. The seller has taken the Fridge/Freezer.

The seller has offered a ‘nominal’ good will gesture and refusing to compensate me £680 the cost of replacing an almost idendical one she took.

Both parties solicitors do not want to get involved, even though the TA10 is attached to the contract and is a legal document.

My first question is: does their responsibilty end at completion or should it continue till issues with the contract are resolved.

Second question: Sellers solicitor say she cannot tell me where the seller has gone (GDPR) as I am prepared to initiate Small Claims.

Also, when I viewed the property which has a dishwasher, seller stated she does not use it as she prefers to hand wash up. Asked if it worked, and she said, yes! Dishwasher does not work. Another £400+.

I think as stated, I just want to know when conveyancing solicitors responsibilty ends.

Any input would be appreciated.

user1977

You'd need to consult the terms of business to be certain, but it wouldn't be normal for your solicitor to be obliged to handle post-completion disputes. They may of course agree to do so if paid.

Correct that the seller's solicitor isn't going to give you a forwarding address (unless you had a prior undertaking that they would).

£680 and £400 sound a lot as the values of second-hand appliances?

Willis75

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82170922#Comment_82170922

Its not down to the cost of second hand appliances. The Fridge/Freezer she took was almost new.

But she is in breach of contract and she is legally required to pay for replacement. She is legally required to leave a working dishwasher or state it is not working..

She was legally required to vacate the property of all rubbish which she did not. Was told by her solicitor to remove it, and she sent a company with a skip to do this.

I am not allowed to contact her solicitor so I would expect her solicitor at least to engage in her breach of contract. But thanks for your input

MyRealNameToo

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6686989/ta10-fixtures-and-fitting

Your lawyer can help but it wont be part of the service paid for so fees on top. As you say its a small track case and so legal fees are not recoverable.

In theory the value of compensation should be the amount to buy a secondhand one of a similar age to the one that was there. £680 sounds very generous as these are not things that hold value well in the secondhand market in my experience.

Personally would take any electrical appliances left behind with a pinch of salt, certainly with ours they had lived in the property 3 years and sttated the appliances there had come with the property so were of an unknown age. We noted that they had a washer drier (built in and left behind) but also had a seperate tumble drier not built in in the corner which they took with them. Think it was on about the 3rd use of the washer drier that it turned out the drier tripped the earth leak protection.

£400 seems very expensive to repair a dishwasher. Would have thought you were much better paying for a fixed price repair, even Miele charge under £400 for a fixed price repair on one of their dishwashers, or decide its better to replace it for one thats new and you have a warranty/rights over.

lincroft1710

If you have no address for her, you cannot bring an action. Your figures are way too high for used whitegoods. You have no idea of the actual age of the f/f when she moved out and the dw may have ben working when she last used it.

Do you really wish to sour the enjoyment of your new home by trying to bring a court action, having to wait 12 months for the case to be heard and then, if you do happen to win, possibly never seeing the money.

Take the goodwill gesture payment

HouseHuntingAmy

Still saving for my first place, so I'm filing threads like this under 'things it never occured to me to worry about'. The list is getting long.

On the address point it might not be quite the dead end it looks. You don't need the seller's solicitor to hand over her details - you can ask them to forward a letter before action to their former client, and most will do that. If she still ignores it, that's the point where you'd decide whether a claim is actually worth it, but at least the option isn't closed off just because they won't give you an address.

That said, the more experienced voices above are probably right about the maths. A court would look at what the fridge-freezer was worth on the day, not the cost of a new one, and once you add court fees and months of waiting, the gesture plus never thinking about it again starts to look tempting. Frustrating when the TA10 is right there in the contract, but sometimes the principle costs more than the fridge.

WIAWSNB

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6686989/ta10-fixtures-and-fitting

This sort of thing blows my mind by its sheer absurdity and unfairness.

The FF is unquestionable - it should have been left, but it was taken, in a clear breach of the contract between you. The D/W situation is potentially more cloudy - is there any mention of it in the TA10, or is it 'built in'? Ie, was it expected to be included, or was it a 'you can have it' freebie?

(If 'included', by dint of mention in the TA or by the fact it is integrated, I'm not sure if there is then an expectation that it functions, or for the vendor to declare it is not?)

Anyhoo, as to whether your acceptance of the ironically-termed 'goodwill' offer ends your claim depends on the accompanying wording. Read what it says; if there is anything like 'full & final...', or 'concludes the matter' or schtick like that, it effectively will - the moment you accept it, regardless of what you may say as you do so.

So, if the offer condition is unclear, you need to inform them, "I will accept this goodwill payment strictly without prejudice to my rights to pursue a full claim - please confirm it is offered on that basis', or similar. Or if it's clear the offer is being made with that condition, you reply to say you cannot accept it until the condition is removed. And make clear you will pursue a civil case for the full value.

But, first, let's get some product values... You need to be realistic, so, as said before, you need to try and get the best assessment of its true value as a second hand item. To that I would add the cost of having it delivered and installed - these will be part of your losses.

So, what do you know about the FF? Make? Model? Age? Condition? Any photos from the listing? Once you get the most accurate details - and I think they'd need to be pretty accurate - then scour for similar second hand versions and download the details (Facebook, EBay, etc).

Ditto for the DW, if it should also have been included in the sale. Work out the day your relevant viewing took place, and who you spoke to. Write down the details, and as verbatim as possible, recount the conversation where you were assure it functioned.

(Any idea what is wrong with it? Your 'loss' will presumably what it takes to repair, not necessarily replace.

Is this worth doing? I guess it depends on two things - how much you feel you should do the 'right thing' and teach these skullduggs a lesson. And, the level of your total loss above what you've been offered. (Of course, if their offer came with Full&F conditions, your loss is the total amount.) Oh, and you also need to find out where they now are - I bet that ain't too hard (but no idea).

And, it will be worth doing if you handle it yourself. Ie, a civil action via https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees . If they are stupid enough to try and challenge this, they are extremely unlikely to DIY it, so each solicitor's letter will cost them ~£150 upwards. It will cost you around £50. Almost certainly, they will capitulate as soon as they realise you are serious.

So, check whether there is 'that' condition on the GW payment. If there isn't, accept it; "I accept this goodwill payment strictly without prejudice to my rights to pursue a full claim." Once you have the money, then you write to the solicitor to tell them you are pursuing the full value of your claim, and you provide all the details; IDs and values of the items, examples of similar products currently on second-hand sale, add delivery installation costs, record of the viewing you had, who you spoke to, and what was said, and concluding with the final figure less the offer already received. Give them a stated date by which to respond positively, whereupon you will personally submit a civil claim against them. Since you have shown them you've done all the groundwork, they should realise you are serious, and that the cost to you will be minimal. They'll have the option of trying to take you on by themselves - which I suspect will be clumsy - or engaging a solicitor, which they will soon realise is bonkers as the cost will be more than the appliances.

Hopefully they'll come back with a compromise offer that isn't a joke, and that will end it.

Given the right circumstances, that is what I would do, to both teach these folk a lesson, and for fun. The money is welcome too. But you need to decide whether you wish to.

WillowLeaf

Did you pay extra for the items? My understanding is these specified items can be left behind for an agreed price or for free.

If the agreement was they would be left for free then, yes its a breach, but falls down a bit in terms of loss or being had over. I'd forget it and move on.

user1977

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82171553#Comment_82171553

They're included in the price, not "free".

WillowLeaf

If the TA10 does not state a price for the items, then the seller is giving them for free as the house sale price will have been agreed before the form is completed.

Perhaps the buyer made it a condition of sale, and would have lowered the offer if they were not included but that's a bit far fetched.

user1977

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82171750#Comment_82171750

The inclusions are likely to have been agreed in principle. Contractually, they're included in the price - while you can debate whether the price would have been altered if they were removed (and as I alluded to above, the value of second-hand appliances is unlikely to be huge) there is no implication that the value of the appliances is nil.