Landscaper got PCN while unloading in front of my house

defender001

Yet another one from the lovely Elite and the estate management team at Eddington Cambridge which continue to make residents' lives hell. (And I continue to look for a way to sue them for breaching the estate deed, but barristers are expensive and I need to figure out how to crowdsource this…)

My landscaper had been parking on my driveway this week while I parked on the street and registered my vehicle as required by the estate. On occasion, they needed to go get materials and park in front of my house to load/unload. The PCN photograph even show a cement mixer setup in front of my garage (it doesn't show well on the attached PNG but it's there).

As far as I can tell, the PCN falls short at least on:
- Specifying a "parking" duration
- Calling out Paragraph 8(2)(b) instead of 9 for a posted PCN

I'm instructing them to file an appeal and follow up with POPLA as my experience says Elite only uses appeals to record "admittance of guilt". (In a different occasion, I filed a SAR to get communication on me between them and the estate manager and the only comment they had on my appeal is "they confirmed breaching the terms" instead of discussing what I actually wrote; oh well).

Any advice besides the above? Anything in particular to add to the Elite and/or Popla appeal?

Thanks as always

defender001

I forgot to call this out: while "stopped" in front of my property (which is 100% not part of my freehold, it's the private estate land), the van was not on a marked bay. I thought they couldn't issue PCNs unless the vehicle is on a bay.

Woodstok2000

Unloading is not parking - lots of similar cases on here.

defender001

Yeah, I'm familiar with Jopson v Homeguard 2016, but wondering whether there's more guidance around what to put in the appeal (both to Elite and to POPLA), specially given the vehicle wasn't on a marked bay (and thus there's no contract?) and also the POFA irregularities of the PCN. Will POPLA uphold the appeal?

Grumpy_chap

Looking at the photo that has been shared, there does not appear to be any active "unloading" in progress. Can the OP / Landscaper demonstrate that there was active "unloading" in progress? If not it looks like the van was parked. Possibly, initially stopped for unloading but then left in the same position parked?

Is there guidance how long a vehicle can be left in position between unloading being completed and the vehicle removed before the vehicle is considered to be parked?

defender001

There's no guidance at all anywhere as far as we can tell. I can share a photo of the poster if it helps.

I recall that, when parking, they were putting the van on my drive. I even parked my car onto a bay and paid for the day (and have the receipt). But they were coming and going all day to get materials. To the best of our recollection, that's when they were leaving the van in front of the house instead.

defender001

Here's the sign. Any last advice before we start with the appeals?

sign.jpg

tbu271

The photo does weaken the unloading vs parking argument (as true as it may be!). The creditor's defence may be that an hour of free parking was offered but not taken up by the driver. This is still defensible but a bit more work.

But in these cases with a single photo, single point in time, and no meaningful period of parking given, the argument is always the same - how does anyone know what the driver is doing right now? They could have just arrived seconds ago. They could be just out of shot, checking parking contract signage. Or in this case, where you can't even see the front of the vehicle, they could be sat in the front, attempting to register their 'parking' session on their phone. Maybe they chose not to accept the contract, and then drove off shortly after the photo was taken.

Without the NtK having evidence that the vehicle was in this position for a longer period (say 10-20 minutes) it's impossible to say whether the vehicle was parked, unloading or merely stopped, or whether the driver even had sufficient time to read, understand and accept a contract.

Coupon-mad

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82162134#Comment_82162134

How about YOU appeal? Hook it to you and away from the company? Depends how you feel about it…but you can never be liable if the PPC tries suing you later and this has worked in difficult cases.

You are the resident and if you do a vague appeal, talking about 'being on their system because you have got permits for another vehicle when parking' might be enough to bamboozle them into dealing with you instead, if they wrongly assume you were the driver of this vehicle when it was unloading.

defender001

Thanks, @Coupon-mad. I’m happy to handle the appeal with the recipient’s authority, but I would not want to imply that I drove the van. Is your suggestion to appeal explicitly as their representative, or personally as the resident? I would essentially say "this was my landscaper, not in a bay, simply unloading, there's no duration of stay in the PCN, the wording is wrong and is non-POFA, blablalbal, my car was actually registered" and see what they say?

If Elite subsequently realises I wasn’t the driver or keeper, what would prevent it from returning to the original notice recipient? I definitely want to preserve a straightforward POPLA route. I don't know how many of these cases are dismissed by POPLA (and I never personally did one) but I'd think there's enough here for them to consider it seriously.

Coupon-mad

"Appeal personally as the resident?"

Yes.

" I would essentially say "this was my landscaper, not in a bay, simply unloading, there's no duration of stay in the PCN, the wording is wrong and is non-POFA, blablalbal, my car was actually registered" and see what they say?"

No. And I wasn't saying you imply you parked the van either. Never lie. Be vague. Look what I wrote above, for you to say, to bamboozle & pull them in your direction.

"I definitely want to preserve a straightforward POPLA route."

There isn't one.

Not for you and not for the company.
POPLA will not work.

The company could appeal to POPLA but they would likely lose, that's the point. I wouldn't put them through this.

You can't appeal to POPLA because POPLA would throw it out the minute you point out you weren't the keeper or the driver. My suggestion was purely to consider hooking it your way so you get the threatograms and have a perfect defence, if ever needed.

They would not then revert to the company. And Elite aren't very litigious. And in the meantime the statutory Code will come in soon, giving an even more solid defence that this PCN was covert and unlawful. If Elite ever try a claim it would be easy for you to defend on several levels.

It is unlikely but keep your address updated with them if you move house.