Octopus.Pulling the wool....

EssexHebridean

Sadly it begins to look as though the OP isn't going to return to the thread to discuss what their concerns are, so there is probably little more to add now.

jimi_man

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82045012#Comment_82045012

That’s not quite true, there are downsides. Privacy concerns, internet security concerns, if you have a poor mobile signal (we do) they don’t work as well. Our meter is right in the centre of the house and it just wouldn’t work. Even in our last house in Surrey, the gas one wouldn’t work as it couldn’t get a good enough signal.

I’m not suggesting they are bad things, but it is important to be aware of the downsides.

debitcardmayhem

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82047691#Comment_82047691

What internet security concerns? privacy concerns ? please enlighten us

booneruk

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82047691#Comment_82047691

Theoretical concerns, and maybe even irrational ones. What's the concern with internet security for example? smart meters don't use your internet.

Also if someone loves traditional meters then there's nothing much to be upset about if your new smart meter can't send readings, you just carry on treating it like a traditional meter.

EssexHebridean

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82047691#Comment_82047691

The "privacy concerns" and "internet security concerns" come under the heading of things which were raised by those wishing to discredit the smart meter rollout - they've been comprehensively debunked but unfortunately they tend to prevail - partly I think because a lot of folk don't truly understand how smart meters/comms hubs actually work and communicate. The claims sound plausible, and "security" is a great one to be able to worry people with.

Cailleach26

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6673551/octopus-pulling-the-wool

I am in a very similar position as you (different provider). On Economy7 with an old RTS meter. For many months my provider has been pestering me to install a smart meter, predicting doom and gloom if I wouldn't act and have my RTS meter replaced.

The problem is that my meter is located in a position where nowadays no meter would be permitted. Ever. Not a smart one, not any meter. I checked with electrician and with DNO. Old legacy meter can be left in its position, but a replacement must not be installed there. Definitely not permitted which rules out the usual "upgrade" to a smart meter in the old meter's position.

Since April last year I've been trying to discuss this with my supplier. They wouldn't listen. My communication attempts were apparently a one way street and so were theirs. They kept sending increasingly threatening and intimidating "marketing" (that's what they called it)… that I "MUST ACT NOW AND BOOK A SMART METER INSTALLATION".

Had they listened to me they would have known that it's not just me not wanting one, it is that I do not want one indoors because it is not permitted. Not in the same spot where the old one is and due to the specific characteristics of this house, there is no other spot where a meter could be placed in line with regulations.

This means, the meter position has to be moved in any case to facilitate a smart meter installation. In my case to an outdoor position (meter box on an outside wall). That's something, only the DNO can do.

Had I actually booked an "upgrade to a smart meter", there are only two plausible outcomes:

1. Their installer would see immediately that they can't install in the current meter position. They would inform my provider that they can't go ahead with the installation. Time, money and significant travel costs (several ferries, we live very far in the north) wasted.
2. Their installer would install it anyway. In the position that isn't permitted. Giving in to pressure (installation targets to meet) or due to lack of qualifications… both is possible.

In outcome scenario 1, it is a big questionmark what would have happened then.

In outcome scenario 2, I would have been forced into a position of breaking the law. And my safety would be put at risk.

At the beginning of May in our region the RTS signal was switched off (this was announced with some, albeit a bit short) notice beforehand. To mitigate the situation and make sure that my 2 storage heaters in the bathrooms would remain operational, I had arranged (at my expenses) a visit from a local electrician to come on the 1st day after the RTS switch-off and connect these 2 storage heaters to the "day" circuit. He also installed an electric shower, therefore the old ot water cylinder became redundant.

Like in your case, the switch-off resulted in only the peak-rate being on. The "night" rate (off-peak) stopped. I had expected this… since I had not heard of anybody getting stuck on the cheap rate, I can only assume that the timing was rather carefully chosen to make sure everybody with an RTS meter would become stuck in the very expensive peak-rate mode during the day.

Since I knew that a simple replacement of my meter with a smart meter would not be possible and the supplier had not engaged with me to find solutions to this problem (again, I tried for over a year to make them engage), I had informed them quite some time in advance (even befor the exact RTS signal switch-off date for our region was known) that they should put me on the normal standard single tariff (that the variable one under the price cap, also called "default" tariff, which millions of people are on) from the beginning of the month of the switch-off.

Did they do it? Nope. They have since been trying to charge peak rate 24/7 for all energy use. Luckily, I pay by BACS each month (it is slightly more expensive than having a DD in place, but it is worth it because it is me who remains in control) so they cannot consider my bank account as a self-service buffet. Obviously, I immediately raised objections to the last bill and requested that it should be corrected. And I had calculated what was due based on the single rate. Exactly this amount was paid. Not a penny more, not a penny less. For the month of June, after the 30th June reading, I calculated the upcoming bill as well and informed them that I expect exactly this to be reflected in their bill. We'll see… they seem to be willing to play hardball… they can bring it on. If necessary, I'll see them in court.

Providers says they cannot change the tariff unless I replace my meter with a smart meter… so their solution to a customer who cannot replace their RTS meter with a smart meter unless the DNO moves the meter position (which is costly) is a smart meter? Installed where is must not be? Really? Doesn't it show that they have no clue whatsoever about regulations?

I don't know when your RTS switch-off took place, I would presume that was some time in June? Have you received any bill yet since the RTS switch off?

I take it that you probably have not (yet) received a bill that covers a period AFTER RTS switch-off. So, since your provider refuses to move you onto a single tariff, prepare for a shock. When you submit your reading next time, all or (depending on the exact switch-off day) part of the month's usage will only have been recorded on the expensive peak rate element of your E7 tariff. Most likely, you'll receive a bill that is much higher than you would expect.

For example: on my provider's single rate my (from me already calculated) June bill works out 26.90 £ cheaper than if the peak rate were applied. And this is summer. No heating needed. You can imagine that the difference between peak rate only and the single tariff is much bigger in winter.

The thing is: if your RTS meter is in a location in your house where it can be safely and legally be replaced by a smart meter, you will not have much of a choice. Irrespectively of whether you want or don't want a smart meter. Notwithstanding that smart meters have their advantages as well as disadvantages (some real, some perceived), there will not be a way around them at some point in the near future. Many RTS meters may be approaching the end of their certification period or have already exceeded it, or your meter might fail… in both cases a replacement meter will be a smart meter (unless you have a supplier that still has traditional meters in stock and is willing to install one of them, which is rather unlikely).

And yes, one could argue that this means that the voluntary nature claim is rather absurd because all these circumstances make smart meters in principle mandatory through the back door and by default.

Smart meters can be installed so that they work in a more traditional mode (what some call dumb mode), either to alleviate some fears or because signals are so poor (region or type of property) that the meter cannot communicate anyway.

In summary: you may have to give in… unless you want to give your provider the opportunity to financially "fleece" you stuck in a tariff that has become useless and very expensive.

However, if you are in the same situation as me and belong to the minority that must have their meter position moved by the DNO, then you need to act.

Hope that helps!

WiserMiser

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82057285#Comment_82057285

Welcome to the forum.

The RTS signal wasn't switched off in May, nor was it switched off region by region. It would have been impossible because the Droitwich Long Wave transmitter covered all of England and Wales, with a couple more in Scotland, so the signal was all or nothing. In reality, the RTS signal ceased when the plug was pulled just after mid-day on 30 June and the barker channel fell silent.

What seems to have happened is that they adopted a scorched earth policy, re-programming a region to be peak rate 24/7, thereby deliberately cutting off all E7 circuits switched by the meter. Happened in March in my area. Too bad if you were on the Priority Services Register, as far as they were concerned you could just freeze to death !

FreeBear

At the beginning of May in our region the RTS signal was switched off (this was announced with some, albeit a bit short) notice beforehand.

Sorry, but the RTS switch off has been on the cards since 2011 when the BBC said long wave services would cease once the Droitwich transmitter finally broke down. Since 2016, the energy networks have been trying to keep the system afloat with several contractual extensions negotiated with the BBC. In late 2020, Scottish Energy started telling their customers of the demise of the RTS service, and other suppliers started to follow suit. Hardly short notice !

Cailleach26

Well, in response to both comments above, I can only say, YES, it was known for some years that it was actually going to happen at some point. Inevitably. For the ones in remote regions, it was postponed, repeatedly, not least because the MP realised that installers weren't keen to serve the isles. People who wanted to act early, and who actually managed to arrange appointments for installations, often had them cancelled the same day (with comments such as "oh, we didn't know there was ferry travel involved") or simply nobody showed up at all. Some people made this experience not just once… or twice… but several times. Some at least received compensation for missed appointments, others didn't.

More recently, the pace picked up because the deadline approached. Still, on 30th of June, there were still over 30,000 old RTS meters in Scotland. Surely, that's not all people who dragged their feet. It includes people where there are technical issues, that (according to Ofgem that confirmed in April 2026 to Consumer Scotland that "Ofgem has been actively exploring options to address this issue" [remedial funding] still remain unsolved.

The transmitter may have still been working, but whichever technical workaround was used by energy suppliers, on the very day that had been communicated to us (5th of May) the E7 night was "gone". I am not a technician. So I don't know how they "pulled the plugs". How they did it does not not matter anymore. They did. Ok. But what is NOT ok, is that they have not engaged to agree on interim options (until an installation is technically possible). An interim solution would be moving customers on single rate tariffs. That's what several suppliers have done. Mine didn't. They prefer to try and charge peak rate. Nope. No way. Not with me.

Anyway, when a supplier has LONG been notified that a simple upgrade was not possible and that it would be required to have the supply moved by the DNO to facilitate a meter upgrade, they SHOULD have engaged instead of a head in the sand tactics and they should have discussed the situation. And since no attempt whatsoever was made to solve the technical problems, the notice period was a bit short. It was pretty clear that mitigation measures (i.e. re-wiring of heating which would not have been appropriate prior to shut off) did require an electrician's visit. Many have full order books. I was lucky and could get it arranged. Others weren't so lucky.

It is one thing if suppliers told people of the upcoming demise of RTS meters. Everybody knew that was coming anyway. But is is another thing if the practicalities in this whole context end up in a mess. For years it was suppliers who dragged their feet when it came to installations the remoter regions, not necessarily the consumers. Then suddenly, with Ofgem & co breathing down their necks and the signal shut off looming, they started to rush. Valuable time had been wasted to address persisting issues that may affect a "minority" when seen from a whole UK perspective but affects some regions in Scotland disproportionately.

I suspect, that the "rush" may have resulted in some installations that may not comply with all regulations in relation to permitted locations indoors. I think, there should be audits. Then the truth would come out.

Reed_Richards

Had I actually booked an "upgrade to a smart meter", there are only two plausible outcomes:

Their installer would see immediately that they can't install in the current meter position. They would inform my provider that they can't go ahead with the installation. Time, money and significant travel costs (several ferries, we live very far in the north) wasted.

Their installer would install it anyway. In the position that isn't permitted. Giving in to pressure (installation targets to meet) or due to lack of qualifications… both is possible.

I wanted a smart meter and I had an installation booked in 2023. The installer came and observed that there wasn't enough headroom to fit a smart meter because it would be about twice as tall as my existing meter. So they went away again. I suspect that the same thing would happen in your case, the installer would look at your situation and decide that nothing can be done. This might be a waste of time and money but not very much at all if they can install smart meters for others nearby on the same visit. And if they report back on your situation it might enable you to have a sensible exchange with your supplier about what might be done.