Private Right Of Way - What is reasonable use and tolerance.

WIAWSNB

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82035948#Comment_82035948

I imagine the reason for your unacceptable parking was the trigger; the guy found a clotheshorse less visually acceptable than just another car.

Why? Probably/possibly because he found your grundies untidy and unaesthetic, or was worried it would set a precedent. Wot next - deck chairs and BBQs?

If so, I have some sympathy with this view - even if the garage area isn't particularly neat and tidy, having things like clothes horses set up will make it look more like a shanty town. It's just one of those things that irk.

That, of course, does not make this neighbour's viewpoint 'correct'. Except, of course, it is - no-one should park there.

So, that's your point of argument - what about all the other incorrectly-parked cars? Are you going to insist they move too? If not, why not? It should be one parking rule for all.

What power does this guy wield that other residents do not - is he one of the property managers?

Bottom line would appear to be that you are both in the wrong here. I hope that helps 😛

MrDidz

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82035975#Comment_82035975

It's not a term I use lightly but in this case has been earned. A 'fascist' (with a small 'f') is not a political persuasion but a mental state based on a perceived sense of personal superiority that entitles the bearer to bully and dictate demands to the lesser mortals around them.

The assumption in your case is that my neighbour 'asked' me to move my car. But in fact he naver asked me to do anything, he demanded that I move my car like an typical fascist bully boy, even though, it had nothing to do with him and was not posing any personal incovenience to him or anyone else at all. Just because he could and it made him feel powerful to do so.

MrDidz

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036089#Comment_82036089

Yes! There obviously are other issues at play and this particular one is just the latest of a series of incidents which when taken as a whole are making my life a misery at the moment.

As I mentioned in another post I have owned my first floor maisonette for over thirty years and as one of six flats in my block there are often issues with neighbours. The flats were not really designed for residential use, being built to replace a line of ToCH houses that the local Methodist Church wanted to knock down. So, they were designed for occupancy by the elderly, who typically don't make a lot of noise, and don't own cars (or didn't 60 years ago). So, the parking facilties were non-existent, and the walls and floors are floorboards and plaster and not very waterproof, smoke proof, or sound proof.

So, the gradual occupation by young families and couples etc. has created challenges. The fact that the ground floor properties own all the land doesn't help. I'm sure that modern flats would have dedicated parking bays, but in fact when I moved in the ground floor flats all had gardens and one of my first challenges was a dispute with my elderly under-neighbour who accused me of stealing his prized rhubarb.

I am now the longest serving and oldest resident in the block with 30 years residency and 71 years of age, and I've tried to maintain a harmonious relationship with all the other residents. Helping out as much as I can with community chores like taking the bins out and recovering them when emptied. Keeping the paths clean, paying for the garden refuse bin (even though I don;t have a garden etc.) and generally my neighbour are nice people. We exchange cards at Christmas etc.

But my current under-neighbour is unfortunately a bit of an anti-social bully. Who avoids talking to anyone and seems intent on causing trouble, and he seems to have decided to make my life an abolsute misery after I refused to side with him against the neighbours who used to live next door to me on the upper floor. He had, had some sort of dispute with this young couple over something he refused to mention and was convinced that the man of the house was deliberately damaging his car by stick screws in his car tyres.

I rather foolishly tried to act as the voice of reason, pionting out that there are other explanations as to where the screws were coming from and that I hadn't actually seen any evidence that our neighbour had done it. I suspect this lack of support didn't go down well and now that the neighbour concerned has moved out and is no longer available to blame I suspect he has turned his attentions on blaming me for all his problems.
e.g.
- Stop feeding the squirrels because the food is attracting rats.
- Stop feeding the birds because they poop on my car, when they fly over it.
- I have mice in my flat that must come from you.
- I have a damp ceiling that must come from your flat.
- Stop feeding the cats because I might run over one.
- Take down your bird feeder because they are messing on my windows.

And now he seems to have allied with one of the other neighbours who seem to be detrmined to pile on even more misery.

- Accusing my visiting grandchildren of daring to walk onto their parking bay.
(my daughter says they were asleep at the time, but they haven't visited me since the confrontation)
- Accusing me of parking too close to his car, even though it in my parking bay.
(he is now building a fance along his boundary to protect his land)
- The latest is the 'you can't park you car there' incident, even though other neighbours apparently are allowed to do so.

For somone who beleives that communities should live in harmony and mutual respect I find the atmosphere very depressing. This Rights of Way issue being the latest of a whole campaign of vitctimisation. I get the impression that what I am expected to do is sit alone in my flat and just die quietly.

I have read my copy of the title deeds.and I agree that there is a 'Right of Way' for the residents of the flats over the land colured brown on the plan. However, up to now everyone has used common sense and tolerance in complying with that clause. As long as people can travel over the land coloured brown without being obstruicted nobody has got stressed about it. People park on the land coloured brown to load and unload their cars, some of my neighbours park their cars in the corner's of the artea out of everyones way and tradesmen frequently park their vans on the brown area when delivering or working on site. It been just a matter of mutal resppect and common sense, and as long as nobdy puts a gate across the drive (as one neighbour once threatened to) or digs a trench around the car park then everyone can still get to their parking spaces and garages. But suddenly, after thirty years it has become an issue if I move my car out of the way to dry my washing.

I just get the impression that this is a vendetta that probably started when I didn't side with my under-neighbour about the screws in his tyres.
.
. .

MrDidz

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036442#Comment_82036442

I should piont out that I'm not the only one who hangs washing out, but I suspect the fact that I found a solution to my problem of how to dry my washing might be an annoyance. Because when he first moved in I had quite a good relationship with my neighbour and we actually shared a washing line, as well as garden tools, car washers and electric extension leads etc. Because he arrived fresh from a divorce where he didn't have anything and so I let him share mine..

That changed when I didn't side with him in his dispute with another neighbour and one of the first consequences was to deny me the right to use his washing line. So, I bought my own, and took back my car washer, electric extension cable and tools. I think this is his idea of payback..

Bigphil1474

OP, sounds like it is either a personality clash, or this other person is a 51 card deck. Moaning about someone not following the rules even though it doesn't affect you or anyone else in any negative way is pretty petty imo. I'm with you. The main question I'd be asking is, other than demanding you move your car, or jumping up and down in a strop, what exactly can he do if you don't? If the answer is essentially nothing, then I'd ignore him and carry on being reasonable.

WIAWSNB

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036485#Comment_82036485

Well done for supporting your other neighbour against an unproven allegation.

Who is the Freeholder? Is there a management company?

All I can suggest is as BigPhil says - keep living your life, and don't let this guy get under your skin. But don't be fazed by him either - he ain't going to thump you (unlikely). If he does become aggressive, you warn him you'll report him.

And in any engagement with this guy - which is your call to make; you can simply walk away if you want - you respond using questions. Do not get drawn into explaining yourself, or arguing, or discussing. At least not unless he behaves completely open and reasonably.

Stop feeding the squirrels because the food is attracting rats.
Stop feeding the birds because they poop on my car, when they fly over it.
I have mice in my flat that must come from you.
I have a damp ceiling that must come from your flat.
Stop feeding the cats because I might run over one.
Take down your bird feeder because they are messing on my windows.

For all of the above, it's, "You have evidence for this?" When he carries on moaning, then roll your eyes and walk away. Do not engage.

(Ok, folk who feed birds excessively and inappropriately (eg, in the wrong places) can cause a real mess, but that's got to be your judgement as we can see the amount of poop from here… But this can, under certain circumstances, be considered anti-social.)

And now he seems to have allied with one of the other neighbours who seem to be determined to pile on even more misery.

Accusing my visiting grandchildren of daring to walk onto their parking bay. (my daughter says they were asleep at the time, but they haven't visited me since the confrontation) This parking bay has a RoW? In any case, "evidence your claim". If he 'confronts' visitors on spurious claims like this, I would consider it crossing into harassing behaviour, and potentially worthy of informing either the LA or local friendly Bobby.
Accusing me of parking too close to his car, even though it in my parking bay. (he is now building a fence along his boundary to protect his land) Is he allowed to build a fence here? Will this be a problem for anyone else? If these are parallel parking bays, and are accurately marked, then his fence of his must be fully within his half of the boundary line, and not 'on' it. Ie - he should lose a couple or more inches of width.
The latest is the 'you can't park your car there' incident, even though other neighbours apparently are allowed to do so. Again, a Q - "What gives you the right to complain? What about that car…and that one… and that one…?"

Your call on what to do - either face him or roll with it. But do, at least, try and shrug it off emotionally and not let it weigh you down. You do this with a conscious effort to not be drawn in to arguments or discussions - just ask ask ask. Look him in the eye, let him rant, and then ask a Q. Let him see you are not fazed.

If he rants excessively, or becomes aggressive, again calmly ask and not accuse; "You DO know that this is becoming harassment, don't you? Do you realise how aggressive you are becoming?!".

(And it helps if you are recording this, say on your pocketed phone…)

MrDidz

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036501#Comment_82036501

I'm trying not to make the situation any worse by escalating the issue or becoming confrontational. However, I do feel as though I am being victimised and under attack. As it happened I didn't move my car straight away as it was not in anyones way and there was nowhere to move it to. However, I did move it onto the street as soon as there was a space which was what I said I would do, and would normally have done anyway.

I don't think there is much that my neighbour could have done if I had refused to move it. It's not a crime to park on a right of way, so I think the only legal recourse would have been some sort of civil action or constraint order. But most civil actions are based on penalties and compensation and as far as I could see nobody was suffering any sort of inconvenience or damge so it probably wouldn't come to much and the only people to profit would probably be the solicitors.

However, I wasn't interested in escalting the situation, just getting my washing dry.

The main problem is that this is upsetting my loved ones who are getting caught up in the fallout. My daughter has already said that she won't be visiting me anymore because of the accusations made against my grandchildren when she visited last time, which is probably just as well as my son-in-law is threatening to come round and deal some damage of his own if my neighbour tries to be a bully again. But it means that I don't get to see my grandchildren as often as I like.

MrDidz

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036554#Comment_82036554

I just didn't think there was any real evidence that my upstairs neighbour was vandalising my downstairs neighbours car. Though where the screws were coming from remains a bit of mystery. My own car also sufferred a couple of burst tyes from screws at the same time and as far as I know I hadn't upset anyone. But he was quite adamant that it was him.

To answer your specific questions.

1. Who is the Freeholder?
   I own my flat, as does the neighbour who was lecturing me on 'Rights of Way'. The others are owned by private landlords and unfortunately my downstairs neighbour has a habit of complaining to his regularly instead of talking to me. So, often such as the issue of the 'bird poo' on the windows the first I hear about a problem is when his landlord knocks on my door. The poor man just wants to collect his rent every week and so usually just wants me to comply with his clients wishes to shut him up.
   
2. Is there a management company?
   No there is no management company. The flats are all broken freeholds. Which fortunately has caused any major issues so far. Though it does mean the the payment for maintenance and repair work tends to be a bit haphazrd and unfair.

All I can suggest is as BigPhil says - keep living your life, and don't let this guy get under your skin. But don't be fazed by him either - he ain't going to thump you (unlikely). If he does become aggressive, you warn him you'll report him.

I'm obviously trying to do that, but it is quite stressful at times when you are being bullied.

My neighbour is obviously trying to escalate matters whenever he can, but there is not much he can do without becoming violent. His latest tactic seems to be to move his car so that it is parked with it's wheels right on the boundary line between his parking bay and mine. I'm not sure what he hopes this will achieve as I tend to get out of my car on the other side, so it's not actually causing me any inconvience at all and just seems rather childish.

However, he did the same thing when my son in law came to visit and I had to ask him to move his car as my son in law couldn't get into his car to move it. On that occassion he was complaining my son in laws car was parked too close to his boundary, but it was still clearly in my parking bay at the time. To this day I have no idea what triggerred his angst on that occassion as I was not home when whatever happened, happened. I was picking up fish and chips for everyone's dinner and didn't even realise there was an issue until I looked out the window and noticed that his car was parked strangely with the internal lights on. I went down thinking that something had happened.

A former neighbour sometimes had issues in his car and used to turn the lights on to signal that he needed help. So, I went down to check if everything was ok, half expecting him to be collapsed behind the wheel or something and he pounced on me as I was trying to work out if he was in the car and started moaning about my grandchildren tresspassing on his land. (Something my daughter denies. She tells me they were actually asleep when they arrived and had to be carried up to my flat.). But that whole incident remains a mystery,

My son in law reckons that my neighbour was just jealous because he has a better car than him.

(Ok, folk who feed birds excessively and inappropriately (eg, in the wrong places) can cause a real mess, but that's got to be your judgement as we can see the amount of poop from here… But this can, under certain circumstances, be considered anti-social.)

Very true! And if I had been aware of the problem I would have cleaned it up. Though I'm not sure I'm responsible for flying birds pooping on his car. However, having had a visit from his landlord to complain on his behalf I have agreed to keep an eye on his windows and the ground under the bird feeders and clean up any mess created.

I get the impression that the landlord was being pressured to supply new windows as apparently one of the complains was the the bird poo was rotting the frames. But I don;t think bird poo is acidic enough to eat through Upvc, aluminium and glass. As it happens a damp sponge and dust pan and brush keeps everything tidy. I've even offered to pay for a window cleaner, but so far he hasn't bothered replying.

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036678#Comment_82036678

I don't think there is much that my neighbour could have done if I had refused to move it. It's not a crime to park on a right of way, so I think the only legal recourse would have been some sort of civil action or constraint order. But most civil actions are based on penalties and compensation and as far as I could see nobody was suffering any sort of inconvenience or damge so it probably wouldn't come to much and the only people to profit would probably be the solicitors.

I've been involved in a lot of neighbour disputes, many of them involving rights of way. The thing they all had in common is at least two sides whose actions (over time) built up. Without realising it (perhaps) you've got yourself into a neighbour dispute. It isn't normal to feel the need to call your neighbour a "fascist" (small 'f' or otherwise). The solution in all cases I've experienced was either all sides realising and accepting their own part in how things had developed to the point they did, or for one (or more) parties to move elsewhere.

Financially your biggest risk is probably having to declare a neighbour dispute if you decide to sell up, or if you get embroiled in legal action.

It isn't illegal to park on a private right of way, but by doing so in the wrong circumstances could lead to a conviction for some other offence. Nothing you've said so far suggests your circumstances make that likely, but it would be wrong for people to read this thread and go away thinking they can park on a private right of way completely free from criminal consequence.

The full range of possible legal recourse for the neighbour depends on the circumstances, but in some cases the consequences can be considerably more serious than your assessment has led you to believe. If you want to push the situation further you should consult a solicitor rather than relying on advice from this forum.

Beware of making the situation worse. If you have no legal right to park on the right of way then don't do it. Examine the things you've done and consider how you would explain to a judge that those were the actions of a reasonable person. And hopefully it goes without saying, but if your son-in-law is prone to violence or criminal acts then keep him as far away from your home as you can.

MrDidz

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82036442#Comment_82036442

What power does this guy wield that other residents do not - is he one of the property managers?

His main power is that he has installed CCTV camera's at the front and rear of his flat and so has almost unlimited visibility of everything that happens around the front and rear of our building. If you go in his flat he has this big TV screen with all the camera footage on display and I think just sits there and watches everyone 24/7. I doubt you could sneeze and not be noticed.

Which is great from a security viewpiont and it has been useful in the past when we have had intruders wandering about. But it does make you feel a bit self-conscious when your doing something out the back, because you know you are being watched.