Anything I can do about this parking charge?

DWesrey

Hi all, I got an NtK from a car park and just wondering if there’s any recourse I can take? The car park is for a parade of shops so not sure if there’s a particular company I can complain to as in Option A. The parking is free for 3 hours but ended up at 3h 16m.

The wording on the NtK is much better than the Britannia stuff, and I can’t tell if there’s anything non-PoFa that means I can get it thrown out. Letter came on Friday so 13 days after the parking, irritatingly.

Appreciate any help!

ChirpyChicken

All part of the UKPC/Bank Park / Intelli Park stable now

DWesrey

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82010732#Comment_82010732

What does that mean sorry?

Coupon-mad

Just means TPS are connected to UKPC.

I'm a West Sussex gal. I know this place.

I won two POPLA appeals re Churchill Parade for friends last year but TPS have put right the main issue I highlighted, which was the NTK used to just say 'Rustington, Rustington' (no site specified).

See link explaining:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81692748#Comment_81692748

But I see yours identifies the site and it's PoFA compliant. No joy there then…

However, there were three other issues that I spotted about their POPLA evidence pack:

1. The Postcode given is for the Broadmark Lane Car Park (the other one TPS run in Rustington) so it is unclear which location the car was in, and
2. The landowner agreement unexpectedly disclosed that the rule that says you must pay a £10 tariff (if you stay longer than 3 hours) ends at 5.30pm. Now that matters to you because the enforcement hours allowed by the landowner had ended 8 minutes before you left the site. No tariff was due after that time and no breach can have occurred after 5.30pm because the landowner agreement only allows enforcement and payment of a tariff during those daytime hours. Whilst you had overstayed a bit as the clock struck 5.30pm, you'd only overstayed 8 minutes at the point when the operational hours ended. 8 minutes is within the BPA ten minute grace period and after that, the tariff rule no longer applied.
3. TPS' own signage evidence showed this:

Spot the £100. Minuscule font! A sticker has been added in tiny, tiny text size. That also has potential to win at POPLA.

Send the Template Appeal (as keeper, not as driver) so as not to tip TPS off about the above then pounce with all three things at POPLA stage!

Run it by me first next month (to check everything) as I'm on my phone usually but I think on my laptop I still have the landowner agreement showing the 5.30pm tariff rule end time.

You'll need to embed it as evidence into your POPLA appeal because sneakily, for one of my friends TPS actually redacted (hid) that silver bullet. Luckily they forgot with the other friend!

I suggest you go in this month & and in readiness for POPLA, set your phone to overwrite a date stamp and get a photo of whichever sign has that teeny tiny sticker £100/£60 on it. That's because POPLA will expect your photo evidence to have date/time metadata and if you don't, TPS will say your image is old and will show another pic.

TPS kick and scream at POPLA stage (the evidence photos were plentiful, they really tried hard to beat me). They seem to hate losing and as you can see from your NTK, they put right the 'Rustington, Rustington' NTK issue sharpish.

Hence DON'T tip them off about any of the above in the first appeal.

DWesrey

Thank you for the detailed breakdown, I really appreciate it!

My concern is that the signage says Charges apply 24 hours a day. If it’s true that the Landowner says the charges end after 5:30, why is it not sufficient to state as much in the appeal to TPS?

I don’t want to go to court over it, I’d rather just eat the £60 as otherwise if I lose it’ll turn into £100 + court fees… My worry is they’ll have updated the agreement with the landowner, and just whip out the new version as evidence that agrees with the 24 hour charge.

Coupon-mad

it's not a concern that the signage says "Charges apply 24 hours a day".

The landowner doesn't authorise that.

Had my friends lost at POPLA, obviously neither of the ladies would have PAID. They aren't daft. Nobody pays to make it go away. Come on, I've been doing this stuff for 20 years and nobody is going to court!

I'm also from your area and speak as a lay rep (if cases go that far). I do that free and I've never lost at Worthing court. So if the appeal failed, so what?

It's nothing to worry about.

You will never pay.

"If it’s true that the Landowner says the charges end after 5:30, why is it not sufficient to state as much in the appeal to TPS?"

I explained why you MUST NOT tip off TPS! Hmmm, if you said that up front, giving them OVER TWO MONTHS to sort it out (the time between your first appeal and the time they'd eventually have to cough up an evidence pack) what do you think they'd do between now and POPLA evidence stage to sort that out...?

"My worry is they’ll have updated the agreement with the landowner, and just whip out the new version as evidence that agrees with the 24 hour charge."

Riiiight… even if they did, two things:

• as I told you, I have the landowner agreement in my laptop downloads and I told you to embed it into your POPLA appeal. That gives TPS a mere 21 days to respond. No time to sort out a new one. Which is why you certainly DON'T use these appeal points at first stage. Did you know that ALL first appeals are refused? They are just a stepping stone to POPLA.
• didn't you have faith in my other two potentially winning points? You seem to want to talk yourself out of running a POPLA appeal with three winning points.

DWesrey

Maybe I’ve misunderstood how it works - if it gets to the POPLA stage, is that not the bit with going to court?

Now that I’ve been back through it after I’ve slept on it, I hadn’t appreciated that you are correct that the postcode on the NtK served to me is for the other car park, so I agree that is also a very good point. I thought this was just in the previous evidence packs you’d had.

For the £100/£60 sticker, is it worth me going back and checking it does still look like that?

I think those two on their own would be sufficient but obviously the 5:30 charging end is the real kicker. How old is the document you have downloaded? I agree now that if I put it in the appeal early it would give them time to update it before they had to produce an evidence pack.

I’m just worried they’ll have talked to the landowner and agreed new chargeable hours since the last time - I’d be relying on an older document as proof without actually being able to access the latest version. I hope that makes sense?

Le_Kirk

Maybe I’ve misunderstood how it works - if it gets to the POPLA stage, is that not the bit with going to court?

No, it is Parking on Private Land Appeal and is the step after your appeal to the PPC is rejected. The next stage, if your POPLA appeal is rejected, is letter before/of claim from a solicitor followed by a N1SDT claim form and that is what (can) lead to a court hearing. Follow @Coupon-mad's advice, she's been around these parts (and Sussex) for a number of years.

Gr1pr

The process is

Plan A, = A complaint about it to the landowner or landlord or business

Plan B = Bung in an initial appeal rejecting the allegation that will likely be rejected by the PPC

Plan C = Construct a suitably worded and detailed Popla appeal, with Evidence included if possible

Plan D = Debt collectors letters followed by a possible LBC and Money Claim

The signs, paperwork, laws and contracts, plus the BPA Code of Practice, are always the ones already in force on the date of the alleged contravention, not newer ones on a later date

Your case would have a long way to go before a Money Claim, and up to a year after that if they paid the court hearing fee to be heard in your local civil court, assuming that they followed every step and paid out various fees along the way ( most properly defended cases are discontinued )

Coupon-mad

"For the £100/£60 sticker, is it worth me going back and checking it does still look like that?"

Yes of course: if you re-read my detailed first reply, I explained exactly when you need to do that. I gave you a timeline of what to do, including when to seek out pics of that sign and what to do on your phone first to make your evidence irrefutable.

You also know when I did those POPLA appeals because I linked you to my post about the outcome. Given that they lost on the 'Rustington, Rustington' NTK point, it's understandable that TPS addressed that in recent months.

There's no reason to think they've gone away & got a fresh landowner agreement, as they were clearly content to hide the hours of operation from POPLA. But my copy of that agreement proves what it says under the redactions, which will be damn difficult for them to overcome in 21 days!

Even if they do, it will be their word against your version and anyway, the signage point is likely an easy win on its own.

You merely need one point to win. You have three.

AND NOBODY PAYS IF THEY LOSE AT POPLA.

😁

DWesrey

Sorry for the radio silence - so I’m going to submit the template appeal tonight before the 14 days expires - can I just double check, it’s valid to submit the Blue NEWBIE template bit about disputing the charge etc… knowing that it’ll get thrown back because in their mind that’s not enough? I don’t need to “personalise” the template appeal until it gets to POPLA evidence stage, at which point we get them with the 3 bits above?