Points for using phone

soolin

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6666530/points-for-using-phone

I believe the points are fixed, and these points would need to be declared to your insurance company, so check if that would need to be mid term or on renewal.

However, for an defence, however unlikely the site to try is

Free Traffic Legal Advice - Index

With the usual caveats of not using a hotmail or similar address to register.

TooManyPoints

The change in he law came about as a result of a case involving Mr Ramsey Barreto which reached the High Court in 2019.

Mr Barreto was seen filming an accident scene as he drove past it. He was using the camera on his mobile phone to do so. He was convicted in the Magistrates’ Court and appealed to the Crown Court. At his trial before the magistrates and on appeal he said he had passed the phone to his son and it was he who had filmed the scene. The Crown Court, like the Magistrates Court, disbelieved him and concluded that he had taken the film, as the police officer described.

However, that was not the end of the matter.

At his appeal, Mr Barreto’s lawyer drew to the attention of the court a decision of the Crown Court in Harrow on an appeal against conviction for an offence under the same legislation. In that case there was no dispute that the motorist, while driving, had been using his mobile phone to listen to music which was stored in the phone. In evidence he demonstrated how he changed the music tracks on his phone which he held in his hand. The issue was whether that conduct constituted using a mobile phone within the meaning of Regulation 110 and Section 41D (which is the legislation which makes it illegal to use a mobile phone whilst driving). The court ruled that it did not.

They came to this decision because it did not involve any external communication. Although the earlier Crown Court ruling did not form a binding precedent, the Crown Court sitting at Isleworth was persuaded by it. They adopted the same reasoning in Mr Barreto’s case and concluded that using a mobile phone to take a photograph or film did not amount to “using” a hand-held mobile telephone for the purposes of the legislation. Accordingly, Mr Barreto’s conviction was quashed.

This formed a binding precedent and because this point of law was so important, the DPP took the unusual step of appealing by way of a “case stated” in the High Court to have the point clarified by that authority.

In summary, the High Court agreed with the decisions taken by the two Crown Courts. They dismissed the DPP’s appeal and Mr Barreto was finally exonerated.

The outcome of this was a revision in the law and since 2022 it has been illegal to use a hand held mobile phone for any purpose whilst driving.

The law is clear

lt’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle.

Actually the law is not that clear. It says nothing about holding a phone. It defines what a hand-held phone or device is:

“a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point while being used”.

And says you must not drive whilst using one:

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using—
(a)a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b)a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4)."

If it was necessary to hold the phone to make out the offence, it could be argued that a driver using a phone on his lap or on the passenger seat is not guilty of an offence. I don’t think that’s quite what Parliament had in mind.

paul_c123

If you were in court over it, and the police were saying you were using your phone while driving: if your defence is it wasn't "held" because you were operating it on your knee or whilst loosely sitting on the passenger seat, you would need to convince the court that the police were wrong and you were right.

In all the cases I've known, what normally happens is the police get a "direct hit" of sight of the phone being held either up to the user's ear, or in front of their face. Then they notice and maybe drop or throw the phone down, but the police have "caught" the user fairly and squarely, even for a brief moment (which is enough in the eyes of the law).

If you GENUINELY weren't holding it at any point, AND you were not driving obviously carelessly eg weaving around the road etc, how would the police know?

In the eyes of the law, sitting in a cradle and being used is okay. One could argue this is just as unsafe but that's the way the law is written at the moment.

In any case, all 4 of the popular sat nav apps (Google Maps, Tom Tom, Apple Maps, Waze) don't need the user's interaction once they've been set up with a destination. They have deliberately made it so even things like mid-trip route diversions are done without a button needing to be pressed.

TooManyPoints

if your defence is it wasn't "held" because you were operating it on your knee or whilst loosely sitting on the passenger seat,….

It would in all probability fail, As I have explained, the law does not require the phone to be held.

born_again

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81983918#Comment_81983918

Well thats RAC fault.

Fixed penalty notice would be better wording. 👍

Car_54

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81984426#Comment_81984426

"Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty" would be still better. And accurate.

Ibrahim5

I always think a short term jail sentence may be more appropriate. 24 hours in jail for the first offence. Obviously much longer sentences if caught again.

facade

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81984700#Comment_81984700

In The Olden Days we used to have buildings in every town* (and lots of villages too) called "Police Stations". These would have custody cells so your idea could have been implemented easily at the local level by arresting offenders at the roadside and keeping them in custody for 24 hours while they are "processed" for a first offence.

Unfortunately these "Police Stations" are very few and far between now (and no-one seems to hold data on how few of them there actually are….)

(*30 years ago I could have easily walked to 5 of them from my house, now there is one, and it is the furthest one away….)

Car_54

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81985336#Comment_81985336

And we also had (and still have) buildings called "courts", where alleged offenders have to be found guilty before they can be punished.

textbook

It's three years until my 6 points are taken off. With frequent speeding cameras everywhere im worried about losing my licence. Did driver awareness course last month. If I get three more I'll change jobs- to a job with less driving.

How do I get a better phone cradle for sat nav music? How do I voice activate it my current one won't stick anymore and is too large for my phone