Tenant refusing to pay rent

m0bov

Sell with tenant occupied??

UnsureAboutthis

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81907104#Comment_81907104

Even with everything going smoothly, and often it does not because most non-paying tenants play the game, it is taking several months to get a case to be heard in court—easily 6 months or even more in certain parts of London. Then a few months on that getting the baliffs in, etc.

This is one of the reasons that all good landlords should have rental and legal protection insurance, ideally via a good letting agent who does all of the work to get them kicked out ASAP.

_Penny_Dreadful

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81908789#Comment_81908789

Thanks for the link although it actually reinforces the point I was making rather than contradicting it.

In both Cassell v Sidhu and HHJ Clarke's appeal ruling, the issue wasn't the absence of a GSC at the start of the tenancy. A GSC did exist; the dispute was about incorrect or missing information within that certificate.

That's quite different scenario from the one I described, where no GSC was ever provided or existed at the outset. That distinction matters.

In fact, that very article you cited says exactly this:

This case only dealt with a certificate that had a small error. If the landlord completely failed to give the first gas safety certificate, that will still make a Section 21 notice invalid.

So really, it's apples and oranges, easy enough to miss when keeping abreast of housing law, which I appreciate can be a bit of a moving target.

For those landlords unsure if their Section 21 will be valid, Nealy Legal has a useful flowchart.

https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/

silvercar

I would make it clear, either they pay the rent and find somewhere else to live and you in return will give them an honest reference or they risk you taking legal action and they then won’t get a reference and will be liable for some of the eviction costs and get a CCJ. Do this in writing and give them 14 days to clear the arrears.

Then follow through. Instruct a specialist to evict. It will cost you, but it means someone else is dealing with the paperwork.

monkey-fingers

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81909893#Comment_81909893

The judge made it absolutely clear though

• It would be unfair to punish a landlord forever for a small mistake made years earlier.

The judge also confirmed that landlords do not need to keep or show older gas safety certificates once two new ones have been done.

So the point being, whether the Landlord did or didn't get a GSC at the beginning of the tenancy matters. As long as there are 2 valid ones, that's all that matters.

_Penny_Dreadful

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81910295#Comment_81910295

The judge's comments make perfect sense in the context of that appeal case but that's exactly the point you are overlooking.

The appeal was about a GSC that did exist but had a small error on it. The ruling clarified how minor defects should be treated when a GSC was actually provided/existed at the start of the tenancy.

That's a completely different situation for a landlord who never served or had a GSC at the start of the tenancy.

The article you linked to even states this explicitly.

So yes, whether the landlord did or didn't provide/have the first GSC absolutely does matter. That's why comparing the appeal case to a non-existent GSC is apples and oranges.

Bringing us back to the original point: paying £750 for someone who'll still be stuck if the prescribed information isn't in order doesn't magically solve the issue and this is a money saving forum after all.

freesha

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81907074#Comment_81907074

You 'think so'? Dear god……

MEM62

They are now two months in arrears and my worry is after we go through the eviction process what are the chances of recovering the missing rent months?

That depends on (a) their ability to pay it and (b) how much trouble and expense you are prepared to go to to recover it.

monkey-fingers

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81911338#Comment_81911338

I hear you and you keep repeating yourself.

So let me repeat myself. Take it out of context if you will, but it was part of the judgement and a separate line. There's nothing that says you need to show that it was ever done at the beginning.

Nothing.

In fact, your defence could easily quote this case and say "I don't have a copy of the original GSC, because this case law says I didn't need to keep it". Judge can't prove either way.

The judge also confirmed that landlords do not need to keep or show older gas safety certificates once two new ones have been done.





_Penny_Dreadful

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81912003#Comment_81912003

I’m not taking anything, "out of context." Quite the opposite in fact, I'm pointing out the context to which the judgement actually applies.

The appeal case was specifically about a GSC that did exist at the start of the tenancy but contained an error. That is not the same situation as a landlord who never provided a GSC at the beginning at all. You can't use case law about 'minor errors on an existing certificate' to defence 'no certificate ever existed.'

For clarity, here's what HHJ Clarke actually said rather than a single, cherry-picked line:

A mistake in an old gas safety certificate does not permanently stop a landlord from serving a Section 21 notice.

If the landlord later provides two correct gas safety certificates, that is enough to meet the legal requirements.

It would be unfair to punish a landlord forever for a small mistake made years earlier.

None of those points relate to a scenario where no initial GSC was given. They all assume the certificate was provided, but incorrect, which is why this case isn’t applicable to non-existent certificate situations.

And just to reinforce the point, here is the quote, once again, from the solicitor’s article you cited which spells it out very clearly:

This case only dealt with a certificate that had a small error. If the landlord completely failed to give the first gas safety certificate, that will still make a Section 21 notice invalid.

Its also worth noting that decisions from County Court judges aren't a binding precedent, even on other County Court judges. They're persuasive at best, not authoritative.

With that in mind, a non-binding precedent for a different factual situation isn't much of a defence.

Given your posts I can now see why £750 might seem like "ace value" for anyone who doesn't feel confident handling the basics themselves. For me, it's not really necessary because I'm comfortable reading the legislation and following the requirements without outsourcing it.