Chimney removal certificate

Section62

The real issue here is one of safety. If a structural engineer says it is safe then the odds are you will be able to get retrospective approval for it (although I would ask the structural engineer both questions - is it safe? could I get retrospective approval?).

This depends mainly on whether gallows brackets were accepted by the local authority building control at the time the work was done (which may or may not be 2019).

A structural engineer could confirm the alterations (including the gallows brackets) were safe - and when all is said and done many thousands of pairs of gallows brackets have been installed (and are still being installed in some cases) - but if these were not accepted by the local authority at the time then the SE's assurances may not be enough to get regularisation.

eddddy

As well as satisfying yourself (e.g. with a structural engineer's report), if you're buying with a mortgage, you'd need to check what would be acceptable toa mortgage lender.

By default, mortgage lenders generally ask for indemnity insurance - that indemnifies them/you against enforcement action taken by the local authority. In theory, having a structural engineer's report doesn't prevent the local authority from taking enforcement action.

But you have probably scuppered the possibility of getting indemnity insurance.

A retrospective building regs certificate would probably be ok. But maybe check the options before spending more money.

stuart45

I'd be budgeting the cost of steel beams into the price. You'll be lucky to get Regularisation for Gallows brackets nowadays.

Albermarle

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81893671#Comment_81893671

Would it not be easier just to remove the chimney stack altogether? I have no idea - just a thought !

stuart45

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81893691#Comment_81893691

It can be in some cases. As it's a semi however, the chimney could be shared with next door, so that might complicate taking the stack down.

silvercar

Could they have used a private building control certifier? There are many companies around that offer this service and are sometimes quicker than the council.

My limited understanding is that gallow brackets are used to support the remaining structures, when you remove lower levels of the chimney. If the whole stack has been removed, then gallow brackets may not be appropriate. If the whole chimney, right through the loft space has been removed the concern is only lateral support, and that is if the chimney brick work was ever designed to be supported in this way.

stuart45

The Council should still have a record of it if done by a Private Building Inspector. Even work done under the Competent Person's Scheme goes through the Council.

Gallows brackets do a similar job to steel beams. The main difference is that the beams transfer the chimney weight to load bearing walls, whereas gallows brackets transfer the loads back to the wall underneath. The top of the brackets are pulling away from the wall, and the bottom of them pushing inwards on the wall. On gable walls this sometimes starts to bow the brickwork. On party walls it's usually OK until next door remove theirs.

Section62

silvercar said:

Could they have used a private building control certifier? There are many companies around that offer this service and are sometimes quicker than the council.

As stuart45 says, the council should still have a record if this were the case.

silvercar said:

My limited understanding is that gallow brackets are used to support the remaining structures, when you remove lower levels of the chimney. If the whole stack has been removed, then gallow brackets may not be appropriate. If the whole chimney, right through the loft space has been removed the concern is only lateral support, and that is if the chimney brick work was ever designed to be supported in this way.

If the whole chimney, including the external stack, had been removed then it wouldn't make sense for the vendors to say "The seller says this was done around 2019 and supported using gallows brackets."

It is possible the vendors don't know what they are talking about and there are no gallows brackets because the whole chimney was removed, but this would suggest nothing the vendors are saying should be relied on as accurate.

With a semi the external stack is usually shared with the neighbour, which typically makes it difficult to get the whole external stack removed (even where this is the obvious thing to do) because you get into issues of who pays what, that maybe the neighbour's chimney is still in use (/might be used in the future), whether planning consent would be needed, whether the houses will be as visually appealing with no chimney, whether the neighbour can afford the work, and whether both neighbours are sufficiently friendly to be able to co-operate on something like this.

The net result is people going for the cheapest and simplest option - which was supporting the remaining part of the chimney using gallows brackets, potentially with nobody but the client and builder knowing this had been done…. until the owner comes to sell and someone spots the lack of BC signoff.

MyRealNameToo

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81892985#Comment_81892985

But the fact you have highlighted to them that there is no BC sign off means the chances go up significantly and hence why most insurers won't touch it if you have enquired with the council

user1977

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81895644#Comment_81895644

No, indemnity insurance is usually used where you're pretty certain from your other research that the problem exists. The insurers are happy to take on the tiny risk of a past breach being enforced, what they don't want is you rattling the cage of whoever might do the enforcement.