They won't cancel my order

KaratePigeon

well I have an email chain with the retailer, starting with my email asking them to cancel the order (a bit of back and forth but I did quote the consumer contract regulations 2013 saying I have the right to do so) they said it was not possible and ignored my further email. Then the lights turned up, I said i want to cancel the contract and asked for a return address. (I also said they were damaged slightly, which they were, but I didn't want them anyway so maybe shouldn't have mentioned that?)

They eventually gave me a return address, I immediately returned (via Evri with tracking, I have confirmation they received the parcel). Then just standard replies 'refunds will be processed within 14 days thankyou for your patience', then no more replies. When I rang them and eventually got someone to answer they confirmed they had the parcel but sadly I don't have that in writing.

I gave copies of the emails to the bank along with all the dates and proof they received a parcel back, obviously they are the bank so can see no money has been returned. the letter from them just says 'we are unable to obtain reimbursement from the bank of the retailer due to insufficient evidence, hence no chargeback rights. Your matter has now been closed, if you wish to pursue this matter further you will need to seek independent advice'.

I will start the Letter before Action, does this need to be an actual letter or can it be an email?

Okell

People are often advised not to go down the LBA route unless they are committed to issuing a claim if the trader does not comply, So it's pretty much the last resort.

Before sending a LBA why don't you first ask your bank what was "insufficient" about your evidence?

You've returned the goods to the retailer (I assume you have a tracked date of return?) and you have emails from the trader saying that they will refund you within 14 days of return.

Is that right?

If so, ask the bank why they have decided there is insufficient evidence to support a chargeback, and ask them what further evidence you could have provided in support of your claim.

The answer to that question will guide you as to your next steps

At the moment I think you have two problems:

First, I think you've not understood many of the replies here and you didn't make it clear to the trader whether you were returning the lights because they were faulty or because you were cancelling the contract. That muddies the water and I'm not sure if a cancellation/change of mind is eligible for chargeback anyway. that might be why the bank refused you - you need to find out.

Second, assuming this was eligible for a chargeback in the first place, my understanding is that you only have one bite of the cherry and can't claim a second time if the first claim is refused. Whether that means you can't ask your bank to review a decision if they've clearly made a mistake, I don't know.

Given the evidence you say you supplied to the bank I think you need to ask them why they rejected the claim.

Depending on the answer to that question you can decide whether to complain to the bank with a view to taking it to the FOS or to pursue the trader with a LBA and possible court claim.

sheramber

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81988886#Comment_81988886

'we are unable to obtain reimbursement from the bank of the retailer due to insufficient evidence,

Who has decided not enough evidence- OP's bank or retailer's bank.

born_again

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81989085#Comment_81989085

To which it would be helpful to know which chargeback they were looking at.

To me it sounds like OP bank, as retailers bank would not get to make that choice. They would simply reject on the basis of the reason, rather than not enough evidence.

OP banks would then tell OP why.

As only 2 chargebacks here.

Faulty goods, sadly I do not think that "I also said they were damaged slightly" is going to cut it.

&

non receipt of refund, which Op does not have the required proof of (date of refund, amount & last 4 of card)

KaratePigeon

I rang the bank to see why they thought there wasn't enough evidence, and after a long painful phonecall with someone in the call centre they said they would try to re-open the dispute as he thought it 'did have a chance'. But they'd have to allow 15 days for the retailer to respond and up to 60 days for the dispute. I'll have to just wait longer I suppose :(

Okell

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81989102#Comment_81989102

[PS - crossposted with OP at 5pm]

@born_again - "… non receipt of refund, which Op does not have the required proof of (date of refund, amount & last 4 of card)."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here(?).

There is no "date of refund" or card number because the OP is not claiming that she hasn't received a refund that the trader has actually paid, she's claiming that the trader has not at all paid a refund that they have agreed to pay, and she has provided ample evidence of that agreement and lack of payment to her bank. Or at least that's what I understand her to be saying. Would or would not a chargeback be appropriate here?

Again I'm not exactly 100% clear on what the OP has claimed from her bank, so what is your view on the following:

1 I'm assuming s75 doesn't apply because each item is under £100(?)

2 I assume chargeback would apply if the lamps were "sufficiently" damaged on arrival as to not to conform to contract under the CRA(?)

3 but if the OP were simply exercising her right to cancel under CCRs, would chageback be an option if the trader refused to refund?

4 the OP's bank (or the trader's bank - it's not clear?) seems to have rejected the chargeback on the basis that the OP did not provide sufficient evidence to support the claim(?), If this is a mistaken decision by the bank, can the OP appeal against it, or does she have to go down a complaints and than the FOS route?

5 … or sue the trader…

born_again

@Okell

There is no "date of refund" or card number because the OP is not claiming that she hasn't received a refund that the trader has actually paid, she's claiming that the trader has not at all paid a refund that they have agreed to pay,

The card regulation for non receipt of refund are based on the retailer has refunded, just customer has not received.

So retailer can provide same details as you would get on a refund receipt.

So in effect if a retailer say's they will refund, but never do. There is nothing that can be done.

We did try asking customers to email retailer & ask the retailer to confirm that they have refunded ££, to card end & the date. Then we would use that.

Worked with some retailers. But other's contested on the basis they had not refunded🤷‍♀️Chargeback lost.

2 It's a bit of a play on words between damaged & faulty. We would have to use the word faulty on the chargeback to ensure that it was lost on a technicality.

3 there are no chargebacks that would cover the CCR regulations in this case. >5 Would be court case with retailer.

4. If chargeback waws not started then with more evidence it could be started, but it would need to be clear what was required. They could log a complaint & go to FOS, but FOS tend to not get involved in chargeback, unless the bank has really messed up.

Okell

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81989280#Comment_81989280

Ok. Thanks

So to help me understand the chargeback position better, let's assume that in this case the lamps were faulty (for the purposes of chargeback) when they were delivered to the OP, that the OP returned the lamps as being faulty to the trader, but the trader did not refund the OP. Can the OP not win a chargeback in that situation without the trader paying a refund?

To go to my numbered points:

2 I'm using the terms damaged or faulty as short-hand for "not conforming to contract" under the CRA. So what does chargeback cover? AIUI it covers "faulty when delivered", but what about "Not as desctibed" or "Not of satisfactory quality" as per CRA?

3 So if a consumer cancels under CCRs but the trader does not refund, chargeback would be of no help?

4 OK

5 OK. Sue retailer

Thanks

eskbanker

I think the key point is that there's no correlation at all between the non-statutory chargeback process, whose rules are defined by the (global) card schemes, and statutory rights as such, which obviously vary widely across jurisdictions.

Okell

I don't have a problem with chargeback being extra-statutory, with it providing different protection from s75, or with the fact that it doesn't cover all CRA or other contractual breaches by a trader.

What I'm having difficulty getting my head round is the apparent requirement(?) for proof of refund/date of refund if the underlying problem is that the trader (whether they've agreed to refund or not) is simply refusing to pay a refund in the first place. (As seems to be the OP's problem here)

That seems counter-intuitive to me, but I suspect I'm simply missing something obvious to others!

(Is it because non-receipt of refund is treated as a separate category of issues that can be remedied by chargeback? ie separate as in separate from straightforward faulty goods?)