Help me understand the timing of fund sales

dont_use_vistaprint

Bostonerimus1 said:

If you are worrying about the timing of trades you are doing fund investing all wrong.

I'm not worrying about it. I just made a mistake.. 

dont_use_vistaprint

masonic said:

Albermarle said:

dont_use_vistaprint said:

leosayer said:

Looks like the same happened on VAFTGAG - I placed some trades on Saturday and got Tuesday's price. 

It's times like these that I wonder whether holding an ETF would be better although there's no exact ETF equivalent of that fund.

Yes I'm thinking the same & especially now trades are only £1.49 in ii the ETF route seems better for frequent buy and sell so much can happen in 2-3 days 

However you can not buy multi asset ETFs, although they might be appearing in the US I think. 

They exist in some European markets too. Trading212 offer VLS ETFs. I don't think US ETFs can normally be purchased due to a lack of cost disclosure document aligned to our regulatory requirements.

Do you know  there any ETF style money market products in ii that trade in or near real time  as they only pay 2.32% now on cash, even lower on US dollar

 

dont_use_vistaprint

phlebas192 said:

dont_use_vistaprint said:

leosayer said:

Looks like the same happened on VAFTGAG - I placed some trades on Saturday and got Tuesday's price. 

It's times like these that I wonder whether holding an ETF would be better although there's no exact ETF equivalent of that fund.

Yes I'm thinking the same & especially now trades are only £1.49 in ii the ETF route seems better for frequent buy and sell so much can happen in 2-3 days 

Not sure whether this is the case with ii and I can't see anything explicit in their new plans but fees for trading ETFs are usually the same as for shares so would be £3.99 with "funds" referring to OEICs. Something to check before finalising your decision if it would make a material difference.

my understanding is that from February 1 with the 1499 per month fee, funds and ETF's are £1.49 per trade and only share are higher. From ChatGPT 

What you pay on the 

Plus (£14.99/month) plan

Here’s how dealing fees look for funds and ETFs:

• Funds (OEICs etc.): £1.49 per trade — this covers non-ETF managed funds too.  
• ETFs: £1.49 per trade — this applies to ETFs traded on exchanges like the LSE in GBP.  
• Shares (UK & US): typically £3.99 per trade on this plan.  
• International share dealing: more expensive unless on Premium.  

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TheTelltaleChart said:

Nothing wrong with wanting to understand how things work. I wasn't aware (before reading this thread) that Vanguard published NAVs for some days that funds aren't actually tradeable.

However, the fact the prices can move against you is no reason to switch to ETFs (and their instant pricing) unless you have some ability to predict short-term price moves. Which, let's be honest, you don't, otherwise you'd be posting from your own private carribean island, etc. Prices can also move in your favour, and are just as likely to. I was once surprised that a large (for me) purchase of a Vanguard fund went through a day later than I expected (I hadn't checked the trading cut-off time), and as a result I bought in at a price c. 3% lower than I expected (which was nice).

Thanks ! I'm doing okay but still working on the boat, islands next on the list

But seriously, there are times like when I hit the sell button on Friday the 16th that you  know with a degree of certainty what is gonna happen over the next 2-3  days and I was correct. just messed it up a little not knowing about Martyn Luther day. 

But I agree you don't need ETFs to be tactical, and tactical doesn't mean trading every hour it can be one or two times a week or a month and the timing of the Vanguard cutoff in the morning and the low fees in Ii mean it generally works fine. Being out of the market for so long is the bigger issue, with ETF style funds and money market like CSH , even with a bit of leakage from bid/ask things would be much cleaner 

leosayer

Bostonerimus1 said:

If you are worrying about the timing of trades you are doing fund investing all wrong.

I never worried about the timing of trades throughout the whole accumulation phase which were done by monthly contributions.

Now I'm drawing from my SIPP I find myself doing annual rebalances to release cash and bring me back to my % allocation which will inevitably mean selling some equities. Maybe I should be selling equities more frequently than once per year.

dont_use_vistaprint

TheTelltaleChart said:

dont_use_vistaprint said:

But seriously, there are times like when I hit the sell button on Friday the 16th that you  know with a degree of certainty what is gonna happen over the next 2-3  days and I was correct. just messed it up a little not knowing about Martyn Luther day.

Well, I suspect that that untradeable NAV for the 19th is not a realistic measure of what you'd have got with instant trading. Compare changes in NAVs and market prices of VWRL over the same days:

And the NAV falls sharply on the 20th, similarly to VLS80, but the market price has a larger fall sooner, on the 19th. So I'm guessing that the NAVs Vanguard calculate on the 19th used the latest available market prices, but for US shares that means "stale" prices from the 16th.

In any case, for this kind of thing "know with a degree of certainty" actually means "don't know". It's easy to predict that tariff tantrums will hit share prices, or that tariff kiss-and-make-ups will make them bounce back. What's not easy is getting the timings right more often than wrong, or getting the relative magnitudes of the up and down moves correct. In other words: what we actually know is not useful for making money by trading, it just gives us a way to talk about price moves that makes it sounds like we know what's going on.

I don't see how the relative magnitudes matter if over time you are making more money and most importantly avoiding losses compared to if you were just sat in the fund.

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leosayer said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

If you are worrying about the timing of trades you are doing fund investing all wrong.

I never worried about the timing of trades throughout the whole accumulation phase which were done by monthly contributions.

Now I'm drawing from my SIPP I find myself doing annual rebalances to release cash and bring me back to my % allocation which will inevitably mean selling some equities. Maybe I should be selling equities more frequently than once per year.

Exactly this I think a lot of the comments and  repeated mantras apply to people who are years or decades away from the retirement putting away money for their future on a regular basis, that's certainly not what I'm doing, actively growing my wealth month by month and avoiding losses,

maxmarioxx

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81848826#Comment_81848826

I think your information is incorrect. Only OEICs are covered by "funds".

ii use the same grouping as HL where OEICs are treated differently.

https://www.ii.co.uk/our-charges/new-pricing