Courier dumped item - took photo - apparently this is PROOF? whats legal status

paul2foel

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Undervalued

Well it is not "proof", it is just one factor amongst many that a judge would take into account (if it got to court) in deciding "on the balance of probabilities" who to believe.

Aylesbury_Duck

Your consumer rights must be exercised against the retailer, it's them who's responsible for getting the order to your safe possession, and that's not behind a bin, unless you designated that as a safe space for delivery.

Who is the retailer?  See what they say and then come back for advice.

Ergates

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods, in fact they prove the exact opposite.

Undervalued

Ergates said:

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods.

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

Ergates

Undervalued said:

Ergates said:

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods.

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

Yes - personally if I'd nominated a safe place and the parcel was left there (and it then turned out to be less than safe) I'd consider it delivered and wouldn't argue the technicality - I'd accept liability as the courier was following my instructions.    

paul2foel

Undervalued said:

Ergates said:

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods.

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

no safe place nominated

paul2foel

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Ergates said:

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods.

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

Yes - personally if I'd nominated a safe place and the parcel was left there (and it then turned out to be less than safe) I'd consider it delivered and wouldn't argue the technicality - I'd accept liability as the courier was following my instructions.    

Of course completely different.

The fact is I didn't give them this permission. The driver decided behind the bin was a good place to leave it and that was it.

visidigi

paul2foel said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Ergates said:

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods.

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

Yes - personally if I'd nominated a safe place and the parcel was left there (and it then turned out to be less than safe) I'd consider it delivered and wouldn't argue the technicality - I'd accept liability as the courier was following my instructions.    

Of course completely different.

The fact is I didn't give them this permission. The driver decided behind the bin was a good place to leave it and that was it.

To be fair to the driver... The shipper of the goods allowed the driver the option to leave the goods in a safe place - the shipper controls this by defining what options to allow the customer and/or the courier to perform at the point of delivery.

For this reason the shipper needs to be contacted and informed that the goods are not delivered to you and they need to resolve this with the courier they contracted to deliver. Point out the photo is not proof it was delivered to you, therefore, unless they can prove otherwise they need to resend the goods ordered.

Ergates

paul2foel said:

Ergates said:

Undervalued said:

Ergates said:

paul2foel said:

Bought an item (over £100) and didn't get it.
Chased courier and they sent me a photo of the parcel behind my bin. OK but I never got the parcel.

Who knows? Got stolen. Or maybe the driver picked it up again?
Either way at no point did I get this parcel.

Klarna are now saying they've contacted the courier and this photo is proof the parcel was delivered?

Surely not - I did not give them permission to dump outside so hows it my fault?

Any idea of the legalities here?

Under section 29 of the Consumer Rights Act:

The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—
(a)the consumer, or
(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

Delivered behind your bin is not into your physical possession, and the bins are not a person (unless it was Dusty Bin... but I doubt that).

It's a convenience used by many couriers - and most of the time it works out fine.  But according to the legislation - if a courier leaves a parcel outside your property and it goes missing before you pick it up, it's the retailers problem.  i.e. the "proof" is worthless as it doesn't prove you took possession of the goods.

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

Yes - personally if I'd nominated a safe place and the parcel was left there (and it then turned out to be less than safe) I'd consider it delivered and wouldn't argue the technicality - I'd accept liability as the courier was following my instructions.    

Of course completely different.

The fact is I didn't give them this permission. The driver decided behind the bin was a good place to leave it and that was it.

Take it to the retailer (not the courier) - you can even use the couriers photo as proof that, as per the CRA, the goods were not delivered into your possession and remained at the retailers risk.

If that fails, then some people get good results by emailing details of your case to the CEO email address of the company  (googling "CEO email <retailer name>" should get you the address) 

If that still fails - send the a Letter Before Action - there are templates for this on the web.

If this still fails take them to small claims court.

Obviously, decide at each step if you *want* to keep pursuing it.

A_Geordie

Undervalued said:

There have been articles in the consumer press recently by lawyers who have taken a less literal view on this point than some of the regular posters on this forum. They have cautioned against nominating a "safe place" for parcels to be left as they feel a court may take the view that they have agreed to that counting as possession. Unless or until a high enough court to set a legal precedent rules on this point we simply don't know. 

I don't think the OP has said if they nominated a safe place or not? 

Any specific links to articles that you can give as I would be interested to read their opinions. The nomination of safe place is as far as I know an untested part of the CRA in court. 

Whilst I can see the general perception that nominating a safe place may count as possession generally, the CRA goes one step further by saying the risk only passes once it reaches physical possession of the consumer or someone nominated by the consumer.

I do struggle with the concept that a nominated safe place equates to physical possession because "physical" in its ordinary meaning would suggest physical custody or control of the goods in question. If we look back at the history of consumer rights such as the Sale of Goods Act 1979, in that Act, the risk passed to the consumer when the goods were delivered and not when they were in physical possession. So for me, placing goods in a safe place would be akin to constructive possession which is not physical control, but legal control of the goods and the two are treated differently from a legal perspective. Similar to other legal concepts such as actual knowledge vs constructive knowledge. 

I would imagine that there will be some judges out there who think the consumer is trying to pull a fast one if something like this went to court since judges in county courts can vary wildly, but ultimately I think the correct decision would be made if the matter was sent further up for appeal.