PARKING PCN. PRIVATE LAND. NOT ACTUALLY A CAR PARK

TERRIERWITHABONE

In Exeter as you approach the court building the road changes from registered highway to private land. An A4 sign above a 5mph speed sign showing a P notifies of this 'private land'  in very small writing.  There are no other indicators at all.  The estate has the road running through it for approx 150m and various office buildings with defined/off road/own permit holder only car parks (2) or with entrance barriers (2).  Most of the road is double yellows.  There is a break in the double yellows at one point either side of the road each capable of accommodating 1-2 cars. I parked here. I received a PCN.  There are a total of 4 x A3 signs across the 150m area and spaces to either side that say P Warning Private Land and on closer inspection say PCN of £100.  If the areas that are not marked with yellow lines are not available for parking FOC, then across the road or even the wider estate there is no public parking available. No means of paying.  Am I correct in therefore believing that this is not a car park. There was no means of contracting to park.  That the driver is therefore guilty of trespass not breach of contract and the whole £100-£170 PCN for Parking in a No Parking Area (the whole site therefore being a no parking area) has no merit. Thank you

Gr1pr

It doesn't have to be a car park in order to form a contract with a driver 

The signage forms the contract,  if the driver agrees, offer,  consideration,  contract , typically £100

Name the private parking company involved  !

Give the location too

Ignore the powerless debt collectors letters asking for £170. !

TERRIERWITHABONE

This is the sign/signs as the road changes from public highway to private land.  Premier Park Ltd, Exeter. 

TERRIERWITHABONE

This is one of 4 signs across the entire area that warn of the £100 PCN.  Because they are prohibitory can they form a contract offer?

Coupon-mad

No they can't. Just ignore them or send one dispute, to look reasonable. Then ignore.

Ignore the £170 threatograms from DRAs (the ones you saw in pictures when you read the 4th post of the NEWBIES thread).

Still unsure that we are right?

Just click on the words underneath the little red 'MSE link' in the small 'Parking Ticket Appeals' banner at the top of this page which leads to the MSE Guide to fight PCNs.

Same info is shown in both this forum and in that Guide, as regards the debt recovery letters being a futile stage and ignoring these demands being risk-free as long as you don't miss or ignore a Court Claim (easy to defend). Consistent advice here is not just from random strangers. The MSE Guide is official 'Martin Lewis backed' advice.

You don't pay unfair private parking invoices.

Car1980

Unusual for the council's double yellows to continue and very unlikely for them to paint a cycle lane on their own land.

The onus is on them to offer their contract in a clear manner. I would say you would have to go further for a road that becomes private. There has to be clear demarcation.

You also have the issue of not being able to stop to read the contract that is facing away from the road. How can you agree to no stopping on the yellows if you have to stop on the yellows to read the contract?

If you do get a court claim eventually, would be worth getting the council plans at witness statement stage. I wouldn't hold your breath though.

TERRIERWITHABONE

Thank you Experts for your advice.  Much appreciated.   

HIGHWAY PLAN I have the Devon Highways plan and the road does change from registered highway to private land at the 5mph sign with no indicators other than font size 30 on the small sign. The yellow lines and other road markings are uninterrupted as you cross from one to the other.  

DISPUTING IT. I want to dispute because I feel that this is potentially high value scam by Premier Park using Min of Justice/Min of Justice related property.  I would actually like this for this to be exposed/I don't mind it going to court.  These are the points I am going to pick up on having done a lot of reading.

1. No windscreen PCN and no proper Notice to Keeper received.  No ticket was put on the car. The first letter arrived around 18 days later, which is outside the POFA deadline. 

2. No evidence of a period of parking.  The notice only gives a single “time of issue”. There’s no start time, no end time, and no “period of parking” as required.  Perhaps the driver went to read a sign!  Hazards are on. 

3. The change from public highway to private land isn’t clear from a car.  The adopted highway ends at the 5mph sign, but the signage is small, not clearly visible from an approaching vehicle at 30mph.  There's no reason to imagine anything had changed. 

4. The entrance sign is misleading.  The sign actually welcomes drivers, shows the “P” symbol which suggests/infers parking is available subject to restrictions (not that you can read that bit).  In reality, there is no public parking anywhere. A clear sign would say something like “Private land – no public parking or no public parking except permit-holder car parks” (which are all off road/assigned to office buildings)

5. So this isn’t a car park.  It is a private estate road. There’s no pay & display, no pay-by-phone, no tariff, no bays and no way for a member of the public to park in compliance it seems.  The allegation on the letter itself is “parking in a no parking area”.  That no parking area is site wide. There is no parking scheme to comply with, no contract to enter into - they cannot rely on Beavis. 

6. A “don’t park here or £100” sign can’t create a contract.  If parking isn’t offered, there is nothing to accept and a contract isn't formed by ignoring a prohibition whether it threatens a £100 or £1m. At most this would be civil trespass not breach of contract, which only the landowner (or someone with exclusive possession) could pursue and without loss any damages would be nominal and not £100. 

7. You’d have to park before you could read the small signs.  There are four “Warning/Private Land/£100” signs, but they’re small and not readable from a car. You’d have to stop on yellow or get out and walk over to read them - which means you only discover the terms after you’ve already parked. On yellow!

8. Yellow lines are used in a misleading way - most of the site has yellow lines, but there are 2 x short stretches without them.  There’s no sign saying "no yellow lines means the same as yellow lines". I parked in one of the unmarked sections.

9. Street View shows people parking in those no yellows spots for years.  That shows long-standing confusion, which the operator could easily have fixed by extending the yellow lines - but wait a minute they haven't... 

10. The layout seems designed to catch people out.  Given the misleading small, entrance sign, selective yellow lines and years of people parking there, it’s easy to see how drivers get caught. If even just 8 people a day park in the area with no yellow lines thinking it’s allowed, that’s potentially £200k a year in PCNs. That doesn’t feel even remotely accidental.

11. This is court land – there should be a higher standard.  People attending court or official time sensitive appointments should be able to rely on clear, fair signage. Ambiguous signs and road markings are especially unacceptable in that context.   

Does anyone know if landlords get shares of the PCN money?  Is that a typical model?

Coupon-mad

No.

Normal model works as a protection racket: "we'll look after your land free, guv".

ScammedByParkingCompany

I'm currently being taken to court over a PCN issued by UKCPS. On private residential land where I reside.

These companies are so corrupt that during mediation when I told them I have not only a valid permit (valid at the time), I also have a written exemption by none other than the the land manager (UKCPS's own client).

I told them during mediation that this was the case and they continued with the court proceeding's regardless. They also make it impossible to reach a human operator and have no email address on their website.

So I guess, we go to court next.

From asking Grok about my case, it seems that the majority of cases are won by the parking enforcement companies by default due to court hearings happening while the defendant is absent.

I also learned that parking enforcement cases make up between 30-33% of all small claims cases in the UK.

That's a huge racket in my opinion.

Le_Kirk

Is this to do with another thread: -

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6622900/i-have-a-hm-courts-tribunals-letter

If so, continue on that thread. If not, we need some more details.