Economy7 clock wrong

QrizB

OP:

You have a five-wire smart meter. Your ALCS is switched by a schedule internal to the smart meter. This schedule should match the tariff-switching schedule that's also internal to the meter.

If you stay up late, or get up early, you can check whether your rate changes at the same time that the ALCS switches. If they both switch at the same time, everything is working as it should. If they don't, Octopus can send new settings to your meter over-the-air to resynchronise them.

Edit to add:

Akustik said:

Watching the meter I can see that I'm still on the day rate when all the 7 hour appliances kick in and the usage jumps to 7kWh, price is also the day rate. 

If you've seen this, the problem is the internal schedules and Octopus can fix this easily. The poster in the thread that we linked to earlier went through exactly this process a few weeks ago.

WiserMiser

squirrelpie said:

QrizB said:

Akustik said:

My Economy 7 night rate is from 00:30 to 07:30, 

It almost certainly isn't.

I'm curious why you say that? I have an E7 tariff and UKPN are my DNO. My E7 times are 00:30 to 07:30 and that has been confirmed by Octopus to the Ombudsman.

The published times are nominal.  They won't be the actual times that your meter switches its registers over.  There's always been a tolerance of ± 15 minutes even back in the Radio TeleSwitch days.  It's to avoid the disruption that would be caused if whole regions all suddenly switched their immersion and night storage heaters on at the exactly same moment.  Breakers on HV lines would trip, the frequency would dip and trains might even stop and need rebooting because their control gear is frequency sensitive.

WiserMiser

Akustik said:

I'm going to try to answer as many questions as I can at once here ... 

WiserMiser said:

Phone Octopus, it's a free number and they usually answer promptly.  Call from the number they have for you (don't withhold it) and you'll always reach the same team, so you won't end up being passed from pillar to post having to repeat your story every time. Start by asking to speak to a meter and billing specialist.

If you have no luck, send an email headed COMPLAINT; escalate to the Ombudsman upon receipt of a deadlock letter after eight weeks if they don't send one.

Thanks, I'll do that. Do you think there's any chance of recovering whatever could have been overcharged for past years?

Yes, go for it. If you don't ask, you don't get.  But get the mismatch sorted out first, then ask for the refund (and also some compo for all the aggro).

Scot_39

Akustik said:

I'm going to try to answer as many questions as I can at once here ...

QrizB said:
It almost certainly isn't.

Learn to trust people.

QrizB said:
Have a read through this thread, then check your switching times by staying up late and then getting up early.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6647455/e7-active-period-differs-from-billing-period

I will have a look, thanks. I did look through a bunch of posts on this forum and another, but maybe not that one.

Scot_39 said:

What meter do you have ?

I've included a picture at the end of this comment.

Scot_39 said:
Does the meter switch the heaters automatically or do you use a different timer ?

The storage heaters and immersion heaters are on a separate fuse box. The night circuit turns on automatically at a specific time - last time I looked, that time was 00:06.

Scot_39 said:
It could be your e7 times are actually 0006 to 0706 - 00 to 07 nominal plus 6min meter offset.

The smart meter itself has a visual graphic once it approaches 30 minutes before the rate change time that counts down to the rate change. Watching the meter I can see that I'm still on the day rate when all the 7 hour appliances kick in and the usage jumps to 7kWh, price is also the day rate. You can see in the usage graphic in my original post that for the same periods the comparison between kWh and £ at the 00:00 - 00:30 slot are out of sync. The next slot is higher wattage use but costs less, as the meter has switched over to the night rate.

Scot_39 said:
Sounds at least like your ALC's calendar is set to that if that's the meter doing the switching at 0006.

I wouldn't know, but it sounds like it. I guess that's what I'm trying to get fixed?

Scot_39 said:
Some meters give you the info to tell if you have the tariff and the heaters out of sync.  Showing active register and restricted contactor.
Your unlikely to be billed half hourly on a standard e7 type tariff, but using 2 daily meter registers 

I don't know ...

Scot_39 said:
Do you have an IHD with a countdown to next rate- does that time end when  heaters actually come on - or is it out by 1/2 hr ?

I think this is what I'm talking about 3 points up.

Scot_39 said:
It could be Octopus haven't set 2 separate sets of times - one for ALC's and one for tariff - to match - its not that common but comes up regularly enough here - so a known fault though.
In that case its nothing to do with DNO - entirely in control of supplier.

Yes, it does seem like their problem, but are they likely to fix it? One commenter seems skeptical that they'd bother.
 

lohr500 said:

...
Also, it is worth mentioning that your off-peak timing may not be exactly 00:30 to 07:30 as there can be a slight offset which is set at meter level to avoid massive spikes on the grid network caused by thousands of Economy 7 meters all switching to off-peak at bang on the same time.But this time offset is constant.

Thanks for the info above the quote. I understand that these variation should be fairly small though, yes? Like 5 minutes or so, not 25?

WiserMiser said:

Phone Octopus, it's a free number and they usually answer promptly.  Call from the number they have for you (don't withhold it) and you'll always reach the same team, so you won't end up being passed from pillar to post having to repeat your story every time. Start by asking to speak to a meter and billing specialist.

If you have no luck, send an email headed COMPLAINT; escalate to the Ombudsman upon receipt of a deadlock letter after eight weeks if they don't send one.

Thanks, I'll do that. Do you think there's any chance of recovering whatever could have been overcharged for past years?

SAC2334 said:

I was a meter reader for 20 years and this subject was my hobby on my rounds . The old circular 24 timer switches could have the 7 hrs night rate anywhere in the 24 hour period . 

The suppliers absolve responsibility for these errant timer switches . Just as long as you get seven hours out of the 24  on low rate ,whatever time it falls then they are covered
.It's up to the ocgupier to work around those times . .The times they may publicise say 12.30 to 7.30 am ( 1.30 to 8.30 in British Summer Time ) are only advisory and not set in stone .
 If the cheap rate does drift into peak hours like 4 pm to 7 pm then the occupier gets a bargain cheap rate in a useful time slot and not in the dead of night . Swings and roundabouts . 

My problem is I'm on the roundabout, or is it the swing? Do you think there's not much chance that they'll consider changing this to the correct time then?

Fuse boxes are separated into two boxes - 1 box for storage heaters and immersion heater fuses (3x20A + 1 main), 1 box for everything else. I haven't included a picture of those. 

It sounds like a simple ota update needed - for Octopus to request proper timings to be sent to your meter to align the timing of the tariffs and the alcs calender.

The 05/06 minutes was lilely preset on your meter - its unlikely the alcs set to 0006 itself.  Theres a preset offset time - it applies to both alcs calander and tariff times - so as long as both are 00 to 07 or 0030 to 0730 - they will match (0006 or 0036 start etc).

You just need to get past the first line of customer service folk who shockingly dont understand their duty - suppliers not dno - to properly configure meters.

The complaint route shouldn't be necessary but should work.

Folk have had it corrected within 24 -48 hrs in the past - once the message gets to right person - in the suppliers team.

Scot_39

squirrelpie said:

QrizB said:

Akustik said:

My Economy 7 night rate is from 00:30 to 07:30, 

It almost certainly isn't.

I'm curious why you say that? I have an E7 tariff and UKPN are my DNO. My E7 times are 00:30 to 07:30 and that has been confirmed by Octopus to the Ombudsman.

Its likely the 06 minutes start on your restricted feed to heaters is the meter dependent preset switch offset (so not every e7 meter in country switches all say 10-15kW load on at the exact time).

And so even if Octopus sent 0030 to 0730 (which they should also have set your meter alcs calender to) the 6m offset would apply.

So in reality your meter offpeak times would be 0036 to 0736 - the offset is common to alcs and tariff to keep register based billing in sync.

Mines is near zero on my smets1, others report upto 10-12 mins though, and on smets2 the theoretical limit is iirc c30mins.

But as above it sounds like Octopus need to set both alcs calander and tariff to 0030 to 0730 gmt to fix your 25m overbilling problem.  And if the 6m is the switching offset both will switch at 0036.

The half hourly rates on the app are just a best guess - they mean nothing when register billed on things like e7.

Akustik

Scot_39 said:
Its likely the 06 minutes start on your restricted feed to heaters is the meter dependent preset switch offset (so not every e7 meter in country switches all say 10-15kW load on at the exact time).

And so even if Octopus sent 0030 to 0730 (which they should also have set your meter alcs calender to) the 6m offset would apply.

So in reality your meter offpeak times would be 0036 to 0736 - the offset is common to alcs and tariff to keep register based billing in sync.

My problem is that it starts too early by a lot. The storage heaters and the immersion heater have all cooled down so they all go full blast for 25 minutes. If it started later, after the night rate has already kicked in and runs a bit over in the morning, then it won't be using as much by then as it'll already have topped up on heat.

Scot_39

Akustik said:

Scot_39 said:
Its likely the 06 minutes start on your restricted feed to heaters is the meter dependent preset switch offset (so not every e7 meter in country switches all say 10-15kW load on at the exact time).

And so even if Octopus sent 0030 to 0730 (which they should also have set your meter alcs calender to) the 6m offset would apply.

So in reality your meter offpeak times would be 0036 to 0736 - the offset is common to alcs and tariff to keep register based billing in sync.

My problem is that it starts too early by a lot. The storage heaters and the immersion heater have all cooled down so they all go full blast for 25 minutes. If it started later, after the night rate has already kicked in and runs a bit over in the morning, then it won't be using as much by then as it'll already have topped up on heat.

Yes I understand that.
The only way e7 register billing works on a 5 port meter like yours is if 2 separate sets of timings - set by your supplier - match.
The tariff timings and the alcs calendar that controls your restricted auxiliary load switching - the power to your heaters.

It seems likely your alcs calendar timings are set I'd guess 1/2 hr earlier than your tariff (it would seem odd if set to exactly 0005 or 0006 start for instance.

And the 5/6m offset you see - if meter preset - should be common to both.

So one possible explanation - if meter not in some way faulty 

ALCS calendar set to 0000 to 0700

Tariff set to 0030 to 0730 as you were told (but those are nominal times not actual if meter offset used)

Meter offset preset set to 5 mins.

Heater circuit power on at 0005, off at 0705

Off peak tariff rate on at 0035, off at 0735 (using the same 5 mins preset offset)

PS Note that means your billing is out for the first 30 minutes - not 25 minutes - so are you sure your tariff switches exactly at 0030 ?

(If for instance you had your own timers - you would need to know not only the nominals - but the actuals - including any install time configured meter offset - in my experience many CS reps dont know there is a difference)

Ingore the 1/2 hrly data on portal pricing - its a rough guide only - you need to check both meter alcs and active register / tariff rate.

The preset is never visible on the 1/2hrly app data but its often there - ot just shows fixed half hourly - on the hour and half hour slots.  

The offset preset only impacts daily register recording - for old style multirate tariffs like e7, e10 etc.  Some suppliers like mine [EOn] dont even bother showing 1/2 hrly costs etc to their app users - unless actually billed on smart tou on 1/2 hour segments on a smart tariff.

And the only solution to fix it - is for Octopus - your supplier - to set both to match - in this case from what they have said - likely delaying the ALCS calander times to match the tariff.

Dont let them fob you off with not their responsibility - they are the only ones who can set it.

lohr500

As per my original posting, having seen the photo of your meter set up, I am now 99% certain that this is a simple case of the ALCS timing not being synchronised to the peak/off-peak timing.

AS QrizB suggests, the best thing to do is to stay up late and get up early to observe the meter.

Your meter should have two contactor images like in the first picture.
The Contactor 1 should always show as closed.
Contactor 2 should ONLY show as closed when the ALCS circuit is energised to feed your off-peak fusebox.

On my meter you can actually hear a click as the ALCS contactor energises.

Watch the meter closely around the 00:06 time when you believe the off-peak circuit kicks in.
Listen for the click and observe the Contactor 2 icon.

Take a timestamped photo of the contactor 2 icon status BEFORE and AFTER it changes around 00:06.

By scrolling through the meter display options you should also be able to see which register is being used to record the usage AFTER contactor 2 has closed. If as suspected, the usage is still being recorded on the peak register, take a timestamped photo of this as well immediately after contactor 2 icon has changed to closed.

Finally observe the meter closely at around 00:30 to capture the time when the active register changes from peak to off-peak.Take timestamped photos of the active register before and after the change from peak to off-peak.

With the photos you should have plenty of proof to send to Octopus that they need to synchronise the ALCS timing.

I would also repeat the above process at around 07:06 so you can capture the Contactor 2 icon changing from closed to open, whilst the register immediately after it closes will now be showing as the off-peak register.

Hope this makes sense.

Rosie1001

I can’t give tech info like the others on here 

but I can suggest you ask for the smart metering team to look at this 

call and do a follow up email  and request this action 

Just a quick note , I can actually hear my meter click over to the off peak timings , 

do you have the  small pink octopus device???  , that gives live readings to the app on your phone , you will be able to see exactly when it goes over to off peak / peak