Economy7 clock wrong

Akustik

My Economy 7 night rate is from 00:30 to 07:30, but the meter is switching circuits at around 00:06 instead. When the switch happens 25 minutes earlier, all my Economy 7 connected appliances such as immersion heater and storage heaters turn on during the day rate for about 25 minutes. That means I'm using 7kWh/hour of energy for these 25 minutes at day rate. I believe this is costing me about £10-£15 per month extra due to this issue in winter. I believe this was the case before I was changed to a smart meter and it was not corrected at the time.

Here's the dfference between kWh and £



I have contacted my supplier Octopus twice now, once a year ago and once this week. They've both times given me roughly the same response of "not their responsibility" (see below).

I believe you reported the same issue back in 2024, and we did not hear back from you ever since, but from what you have said, it sounds like your storage heaters are starting to draw power a bit earlier than the designated Economy 7 hours. Unfortunately, we are unable to adjust the timing of the Economy 7 hours as they are set by the electricity distribution network.

However, I recommend checking with your electrician or the manufacturer of your storage heaters to see if there’s a way to adjust their settings. They may be able to help you manage when they turn on to better align with your tariff.

I contacted my electricity distribution network (UK Power Networks) and they were adamant it wasn't their responsibility but that of the electricity supplier.

Whose responsibility is this ultimately and should I be pushing the energy company to come sort this out?

Scot_39

What meter do you have ?

Does the meter switch the heaters automatically or do you use a different timer ?

It could be your e7 times are actually 0006 to 0706 - 00 to 07 nominal plus 6min meter offset.

Sounds at least like your alcs calander is set to that if that's thr meter doing the switching at 0006.

Some meters give you the info to tell if you have the tariff and the heaters out of sync.  Showing active register and restricted contactor.

Your unlikely to be billed half hourly on a standard e7 type tariff, but using 2 daily meter registers 

Do you have an ihd with a countdown to next rate- does that time end when  heaters actually come on - or is it out by 1/2 hr ?

It could be Octopus haven't set 2 seperate sets of times - one for alcs and one for tariff - to match - its not that common but comes up regularly eniugh here - so a known fault though.

In that case its nothing to do with DNO - entirely in control of supplier.

QrizB

Akustik said:

My Economy 7 night rate is from 00:30 to 07:30, 

It almost certainly isn't.

Akustik said:

That means I'm using 7kWh/hour of energy for these 25 minutes at day rate. 

Do the bills you receive confirm this, or is your statement solely based on the charts you see in the app / online (which you've posted examples of)?

Akustik said:

Whose responsibility is this ultimately and should I be pushing the energy company to come sort this out?

If there is genuinely a mismatch between your ALCS switching calendar and your tariff switching calendar, it's for Octopus to remedy.

However nothing that you've so far shared in this thread indicates such a mismatch.

Have a read through this thread, then check your switching times by staying up late and then getting up early.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6647455/e7-active-period-differs-from-billing-period

WiserMiser

Octopus are usually a very good supplier but their use of AI hasn't gone well.

More worryingly, they don't seem to be learning from their mistakes.  This ALCS problem is becoming an FAQ.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6647455/e7-active-period-differs-from-billing-period/p1

Edit: Telepathy again... QrizB beat me to it !

lohr500

My understanding is that Octopus should be able to sort this out for you.

It sounds like you have a dedicated circuit for the immersion heater and storage heaters which should switch at the same time as the peak /off-peak meter readings change.

We can confirm this if you can post a copy of your meter with the associated consumer units/fuse boxes in the photo. 

There have been several posts along similar lines in the past and the issue is most likely that the timing for the relay that switches the dedicated off-peak circuit is not synchronised with the peak / off-peak meter register switch times. 

Without getting bogged down in the detail, if your meter is set up to support Economy 7 it will probably have something called an Auxiliary Load Control Switch (ALCS) built into it which controls the switching. There are different ways it can switch the dedicated circuit on and off depending if you have 4 large diameter cables and a thinner 5th cable attached to the meter, or 5 thick diameter cables. 

But the principle is the same . Octopus need to send a remote command to the meter to set the ALCS timings to match the peak off-peak meter register timings. 

This may not be the problem, but as I mention above, it is the MOST LIKELY. 

The photo of your meter set up should help. Please edit the photo to remove any meter numbers, etc.

Also, it is worth mentioning that your off-peak timing may not be exactly 00:30 to 07:30 as there can be a slight offset which is set at meter level to avoid massive spikes on the grid network caused by thousands of Economy 7 meters all switching to off-peak at bang on the same time.But this time offset is constant.

WiserMiser

Phone Octopus, it's a free number and they usually answer promptly.  Call from the number they have for you (don't withhold it) and you'll always reach the same team, so you won't end up being passed from pillar to post having to repeat your story every time. Start by asking to speak to a meter and billing specialist.

If you have no luck, send an email headed COMPLAINT; escalate to the Ombudsman upon receipt of a deadlock letter after eight weeks if they don't send one.

SAC2334

I was a meter reader for 20 years and this subject was my hobby on my rounds . The old circular 24 timer switches could have the 7 hrs night rate anywhere in the 24 hour period . 

The suppliers absolve responsibility for these errant timer switches . Just as long as you get seven hours out of the 24  on low rate ,whatever time it falls then they are covered
.It's up to the ocgupier to work around those times . .The times they may publicise say 12.30 to 7.30 am ( 1.30 to 8.30 in British Summer Time ) are only advisory and not set in stone .
 If the cheap rate does drift into peak hours like 4 pm to 7 pm then the occupier gets a bargain cheap rate in a useful time slot and not in the dead of night . Swings and roundabouts . 

Akustik

I'm going to try to answer as many questions as I can at once here ...

QrizB said:
It almost certainly isn't.

Learn to trust people.

QrizB said:
Have a read through this thread, then check your switching times by staying up late and then getting up early.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6647455/e7-active-period-differs-from-billing-period

I will have a look, thanks. I did look through a bunch of posts on this forum and another, but maybe not that one.

Scot_39 said:

What meter do you have ?

I've included a picture at the end of this comment.

Scot_39 said:
Does the meter switch the heaters automatically or do you use a different timer ?

The storage heaters and immersion heaters are on a separate fuse box. The night circuit turns on automatically at a specific time - last time I looked, that time was 00:06.

Scot_39 said:
It could be your e7 times are actually 0006 to 0706 - 00 to 07 nominal plus 6min meter offset.

The smart meter itself has a visual graphic once it approaches 30 minutes before the rate change time that counts down to the rate change. Watching the meter I can see that I'm still on the day rate when all the 7 hour appliances kick in and the usage jumps to 7kWh, price is also the day rate. You can see in the usage graphic in my original post that for the same periods the comparison between kWh and £ at the 00:00 - 00:30 slot are out of sync. The next slot is higher wattage use but costs less, as the meter has switched over to the night rate.

Scot_39 said:
Sounds at least like your ALC's calendar is set to that if that's the meter doing the switching at 0006.

I wouldn't know, but it sounds like it. I guess that's what I'm trying to get fixed?

Scot_39 said:
Some meters give you the info to tell if you have the tariff and the heaters out of sync.  Showing active register and restricted contactor.
Your unlikely to be billed half hourly on a standard e7 type tariff, but using 2 daily meter registers 

I don't know ...

Scot_39 said:
Do you have an IHD with a countdown to next rate- does that time end when  heaters actually come on - or is it out by 1/2 hr ?

I think this is what I'm talking about 3 points up.

Scot_39 said:
It could be Octopus haven't set 2 separate sets of times - one for ALC's and one for tariff - to match - its not that common but comes up regularly enough here - so a known fault though.
In that case its nothing to do with DNO - entirely in control of supplier.

Yes, it does seem like their problem, but are they likely to fix it? One commenter seems skeptical that they'd bother.
 

lohr500 said:

...
Also, it is worth mentioning that your off-peak timing may not be exactly 00:30 to 07:30 as there can be a slight offset which is set at meter level to avoid massive spikes on the grid network caused by thousands of Economy 7 meters all switching to off-peak at bang on the same time.But this time offset is constant.

Thanks for the info above the quote. I understand that these variation should be fairly small though, yes? Like 5 minutes or so, not 25?

WiserMiser said:

Phone Octopus, it's a free number and they usually answer promptly.  Call from the number they have for you (don't withhold it) and you'll always reach the same team, so you won't end up being passed from pillar to post having to repeat your story every time. Start by asking to speak to a meter and billing specialist.

If you have no luck, send an email headed COMPLAINT; escalate to the Ombudsman upon receipt of a deadlock letter after eight weeks if they don't send one.

Thanks, I'll do that. Do you think there's any chance of recovering whatever could have been overcharged for past years?

SAC2334 said:

I was a meter reader for 20 years and this subject was my hobby on my rounds . The old circular 24 timer switches could have the 7 hrs night rate anywhere in the 24 hour period . 

The suppliers absolve responsibility for these errant timer switches . Just as long as you get seven hours out of the 24  on low rate ,whatever time it falls then they are covered
.It's up to the ocgupier to work around those times . .The times they may publicise say 12.30 to 7.30 am ( 1.30 to 8.30 in British Summer Time ) are only advisory and not set in stone .
 If the cheap rate does drift into peak hours like 4 pm to 7 pm then the occupier gets a bargain cheap rate in a useful time slot and not in the dead of night . Swings and roundabouts . 

My problem is I'm on the roundabout, or is it the swing? Do you think there's not much chance that they'll consider changing this to the correct time then?

Fuse boxes are separated into two boxes - 1 box for storage heaters and immersion heater fuses (3x20A + 1 main), 1 box for everything else. I haven't included a picture of those. 

squirrelpie

QrizB said:

Akustik said:

My Economy 7 night rate is from 00:30 to 07:30, 

It almost certainly isn't.

I'm curious why you say that? I have an E7 tariff and UKPN are my DNO. My E7 times are 00:30 to 07:30 and that has been confirmed by Octopus to the Ombudsman.

Swipe

If your ALCS and tariff price schedules are out of sync, it's a simple remote fix by Octopus once you eventually speak to someone that understands how economy 7 works on smart meters. Do not allow them to palm you off. Raise it as an official complaint. Make sure you tell them that you will also need to be compensated for the overcharge.

QrizB

squirrelpie said:

QrizB said:

Akustik said:

My Economy 7 night rate is from 00:30 to 07:30, 

It almost certainly isn't.

I'm curious why you say that? I have an E7 tariff and UKPN are my DNO. My E7 times are 00:30 to 07:30 and that has been confirmed by Octopus to the Ombudsman.

I say that because every smart meter (and OP has a smart meter) has an offset to the half-hourly start times.

While it's possible that the OP, or you, have a zero-minute offset it's definitely not the norm.

Whenever anyone says "my Economy 7 period is .." and it's not got this offset, it means they're just quoting a nominal period rather than their actual switching times.

You say yout switching times have been "confirmed by Octopus to the Ombudsman". Have you actually checked them yourself? If you stay up until 0030, or wake before 0730, and check exactly what time your meter switches, there's a high chance it won't be 0030-0730 at all.