Random Declines - could be dangerous

TwiceNightly

Lloyds group are playing silly beggars with Apple Pay, were you using Apple Pay?

They recently introduced an Apple Pay limit on their cards (yes, a limit on Apple Pay not contactless) but will not confirm to the customer what the limit is 'for security purposes' - it could be a certain amount per day, a certain number of transactions a day, or can change from day to day.

This is now detailed on their website too "To protect you from fraud, we might occasionally limit the value or number of payments you can make using Apple Pay and ask you to use your card instead " and the only solution they could offer me was that I take my card out with me too and use that when I've hit the Apple Pay limit. I argued with them that surely this is less secure, for example if I'm abroad and go out for the evening I'd rather leave my card in a safe and use Apple Pay while I'm out, but now I also have to take that card too?

They didn't back down on it, so I took all my cards and accounts elsewhere.

Nasqueron

TwiceNightly said:

Lloyds group are playing silly beggars with Apple Pay, were you using Apple Pay?

They recently introduced an Apple Pay limit on their cards (yes, a limit on Apple Pay not contactless) but will not confirm to the customer what the limit is 'for security purposes' - it could be a certain amount per day, a certain number of transactions a day, or can change from day to day.

This is now detailed on their website too "To protect you from fraud, we might occasionally limit the value or number of payments you can make using Apple Pay and ask you to use your card instead " and the only solution they could offer me was that I take my card out with me too and use that when I've hit the Apple Pay limit. I argued with them that surely this is less secure, for example if I'm abroad and go out for the evening I'd rather leave my card in a safe and use Apple Pay while I'm out, but now I also have to take that card too?

They didn't back down on it, so I took all my cards and accounts elsewhere.

My "queried transaction" was done in uber via card directly, I've had it with Halifax too many years ago after I'd already taken the journey to the airport!

born_again

Rich1976 said:

i do not understand how these algorithms work as never had an issue with declined transactions until these two within a week of each other .

Never had a problem abroad though which is when I would have expected fraud detection to be more robust .

Each bank has their own algorithms & they are based on the type of fraud they are seeing. Which can be different not only between banks, but also credit/debit cards within the same bank.
There is a lot of background work that goes into this. Vast majority by actual humans.

MissConception2

TwiceNightly said:

Lloyds group are playing silly beggars with Apple Pay, were you using Apple Pay?

They recently introduced an Apple Pay limit on their cards (yes, a limit on Apple Pay not contactless) but will not confirm to the customer what the limit is 'for security purposes' - it could be a certain amount per day, a certain number of transactions a day, or can change from day to day.

This is now detailed on their website too "To protect you from fraud, we might occasionally limit the value or number of payments you can make using Apple Pay and ask you to use your card instead " and the only solution they could offer me was that I take my card out with me too and use that when I've hit the Apple Pay limit. I argued with them that surely this is less secure, for example if I'm abroad and go out for the evening I'd rather leave my card in a safe and use Apple Pay while I'm out, but now I also have to take that card too?

They didn't back down on it, so I took all my cards and accounts elsewhere.

Yes, Apple pay. So that might explain some of the declines. But why no contact from them, just silence? I recently got a text about cashback, so I know they have the right contact details.

When they say "To protect YOU from fraud" are they being disingenuous? Surely, they are protecting themselves as they would most likely the liable to refund the customer if they could not establish negligence?

I spoke to their customer service people again yesterday and explained the complaint (again) as I don't think they took on board the extent of the problem. So now they are taking another look at it.

MissConception2

born_again said:

Rich1976 said:

i do not understand how these algorithms work as never had an issue with declined transactions until these two within a week of each other .

Never had a problem abroad though which is when I would have expected fraud detection to be more robust .

Each bank has their own algorithms & they are based on the type of fraud they are seeing. Which can be different not only between banks, but also credit/debit cards within the same bank.
There is a lot of background work that goes into this. Vast majority by actual humans.

Can I ask how you know what goes on in the background at these banks? From your evident knowledge, do you think they are being reasonable toward the customer or being overly self-protective? I know fraud is a major problem for banks but does that problem really come from small card transactions?

I was told, by one rep that I spoke to, that fraudsters often start with a small payment before upping the ante, as it were. To stop small payments on the suspicion that it might be the precursor of a bigger fraud to come, is bordering on paranoia. Stopping unusual larger payments is perfectly reasonable, with the caveat that the customer is contact about the decline.

MissConception2

Nebulous2 said:

I'm not sure if I go to anywhere you would consider as unsafe. I trim the number of cards I carry when abroad, leaving some at home, but would usually have at least 4 (2 credit, 2 debit)  that don't have foreign exchange fees, and another 2-3 that do, but could be used in an emergency. 

Something I do early in a holiday, if I can find a fee-free ATM, is draw out cash. Even in France / Spain, I'll get 100 or 200 euros, depending how long I'm away for.

Having said that - last year I made a purchase of over 2000 euros in a shop, on a credit card, and didn't even have to authorise it. It just went through. So I've had very few problems, either at home or abroad. 

That's my approach, very much a belt and braces one. 

On one occasion I did try to get cash from an ATM. In fact I tried about 5 or 6 of them in two different locations. All of them wanted a cash transaction fee, and it was pretty steep! So even if the card you have is fee free obtaining cash might not be free if the ATM itself charges. As I don't use cash much these days I'd never encountered this before. Since my cards were still working at the time I didn't get any cash.

I had taken a small amount of foreign currency (where it was available) with me, but not all currencies can be had (easily) in the UK. Even then, you are warned about carrying a lot of cash if there is any possibility of being mugged. If you choose to carry cash it must an amount that you are prepared to lose as any insurance cover you might have would either not cover it all or it would be below the excess value.

In truth any major city could be considered unsafe these days if you happen to wander into the wrong area. Even London is an unsafe place, as are most cities in the UK.

MissConception2

Rich1976 said:

I’ve had credit card payments declined by both Halifax and First Direct recently . First Direct sent me a notification just before Christmas to say a payment to my home insurance provider was declined. The policy had been set up on auto renewal and as I was happy with the renewal quote I let the payment come out automatically. I had to confirm by replying to the text that it was me but they don’t still process the payment, I had to ring the home insurer and manually pay over the phone.

Halifax declined the card when I was trying to pay for parking but the FD card accepted it.

i do not understand how these algorithms work as never had an issue with declined transactions until these two within a week of each other .

Never had a problem abroad though which is when I would have expected fraud detection to be more robust .

Just goes to show how bizarre the rules are the banks seem to apply to quite ordinary transactions. I wonder how many fraudsters try to take out home insurance? 

flaneurs_lobster

MissConception2 said:

Rich1976 said:

I’ve had credit card payments declined by both Halifax and First Direct recently . First Direct sent me a notification just before Christmas to say a payment to my home insurance provider was declined. The policy had been set up on auto renewal and as I was happy with the renewal quote I let the payment come out automatically. I had to confirm by replying to the text that it was me but they don’t still process the payment, I had to ring the home insurer and manually pay over the phone.

Halifax declined the card when I was trying to pay for parking but the FD card accepted it.

i do not understand how these algorithms work as never had an issue with declined transactions until these two within a week of each other .

Never had a problem abroad though which is when I would have expected fraud detection to be more robust .

Just goes to show how bizarre the rules are the banks seem to apply to quite ordinary transactions. I wonder how many fraudsters try to take out home insurance? 

TBF, many transactions are presented to the payer bank as originating from a payment processor (like Stripe or PayPal) so the actual payee may not be obvious.

VAP_Driver

Whilst serving with British Forces on detachment in Qatar, I made a purchase in the on base shop provided by the US Forces, known as the Base Exchange (BX). Later that day, I went out and into to Doha and tried to pay for a meal using my same card, which was declined. 

After a lengthy conversation with my card issuer, I established that the first, BX payment was processed in the US rather than locally, and as a result the second transaction was flagged as fraudulent, seeing as it was recorded as being made 5000 miles away, but only a couple of hours later than the first one.

born_again

MissConception2 said:

born_again said:

Rich1976 said:

i do not understand how these algorithms work as never had an issue with declined transactions until these two within a week of each other .

Never had a problem abroad though which is when I would have expected fraud detection to be more robust .

Each bank has their own algorithms & they are based on the type of fraud they are seeing. Which can be different not only between banks, but also credit/debit cards within the same bank.
There is a lot of background work that goes into this. Vast majority by actual humans.

Can I ask how you know what goes on in the background at these banks? From your evident knowledge, do you think they are being reasonable toward the customer or being overly self-protective? I know fraud is a major problem for banks but does that problem really come from small card transactions?

I was told, by one rep that I spoke to, that fraudsters often start with a small payment before upping the ante, as it were. To stop small payments on the suspicion that it might be the precursor of a bigger fraud to come, is bordering on paranoia. Stopping unusual larger payments is perfectly reasonable, with the caveat that the customer is contact about the decline.

Part & parcel of my role. Spent time with team dealing with these systems.

Many call center reps spout total rubbish that they heard somewhere.