UC Application Query

Altior

Many thanks for all the assistance on my original thread. This is really a different subject, so needs a new thread really. Let me know if it doesn't

What happens if an individual applies for UC, and meets the threshold of being under £16K capital savings. I don't see how it could happen, but what if they have a WCA that determines they are fit to work, but have been signed off with a fit note for the next 2 months (for example). 

In my real life scenario I am already signed off until the middle of March. My WCA is in the pipeline due to a prior ESA application, however there is no clue in regard to when this will take place. Another poster intimated that the WCA could conclude that I am fit to work immediately, however I know from my past management experience that you can't defy a fit note as an employer (or employee). 

I have plenty of supporting evidence, so it should only be a theoretical possibility that they somehow find that I am fit to work, when a medical professional has already determined that I am not. 

I keep swinging between what's the right approach to the whole thing, a couple of days ago I wasn't thinking along these lines, but now I am leaning towards going into the UC system, even though it will cost me a fair bit of money in the short term. 

itsthelittlethings

As far as I understand it if you’re found fit to work you’re moved into the job seeking group immediately. Your sick note doesn’t matter any more.

Muttleythefrog

The Work Capability Assessment 'WCA' does not determine if you are fit to work or not. Get that out of your mind if it is currently there.. that's a line for general reference (rather easier than saying 'you did not get enough points to qualify for Limited capability for work or trigger a limited capability for work related activity descriptor').

The WCA has clear criteria surrounding various activities with disability descriptors which you are assessed against as to determine which, if any, apply. There are some non functional descriptors also. The criteria is widely available but ask for link if you cannot find. A fit note becomes irrelevant once the determination is made - that will result in one of three outcomes - 'fit for work' (you did not meet sufficient criteria of disablement), Limited capability for work (ESA classification WRAG), or limited capability for work related activity (ESA classification support group). A fit note is basically just a temporary stop gap for the assessment period (meant to last 3 months!) to flag up you currently can't do your/a job due to illness, injury, disability - the DWP make a different determination.

WRAG is time limited to year, Support Group currently is not.

Evidence you provide should focus on the activities and descriptors or at least be corroborative of claimed difficulties or diagnosed conditions (which can help explain the disablements).... general stuff like 'cannot currently work' would be fairly useless.

If you are classified to WRAG or Support Group in ESA assessment and then apply for UC that status should transfer across. Although some referencing is different the WCA is the same for both benefits and so applicable to both.

If you are on UC and have been found 'fit to work' you will be expected to seek work. Activities to achieve that might be adapted with your work coach if you have disablements.

A DWP WCA decision can be challenged. Firstly by asking the DWP to look again at their decision and if necessary independent appeal tribunal thereafter.

Altior

Muttleythefrog said:

The WCA does not determine if you are fit to work or not. Get that out of your mind if it is currently there.. that's a line for general reference (rather easier than saying 'you did not get enough points to qualify for Limited capability for work or trigger a limited capability for work related activity descriptor'). The WCA has clear criteria surrounding various activities with disability descriptors which you are assessed against as to determine which, if any, apply. There are some non functional descriptors also. The criteria is widely available but ask for link if you cannot find. A fit note becomes irrelevant once the determination is made - that will result in one of three outcomes - 'fit for work' (you did not meet sufficient criteria of disablement), Limited capability for work (ESA classification WRAG), or limited capability for work related activity (ESA classification support group). A fit note is basically just a temporary stop gap for the assessment period (meant to last 3 months!) to flag up you currently can't do your/a job due to illness, injury, disability.

LCW (WRAG) is time limited to year, LCWRA (Support Group) currently is not.

Evidence you provide should focus on the activities and descriptors or at least be corroborative of claimed difficulties or diagnosed conditions (which can help explain the disablements).... general stuff like 'cannot currently work' would be fairly useless.

If you are classified to WRAG or Support Group in ESA assessment and then apply for UC that status should transfer across.

Thanks.

Yes I reviewed the descriptors before populating the ESA50 form. Predominately so that my written evidence correlates with the criteria it is assessed against.

It's the improbable but possible ' 'fit for work'  outcome I'm finding difficult to reconcile. I would be in effective limbo then. DWP/UC concluding I am fit to work, but legally unable to (as well as unable to, in practice). I believe the medic can reverse it but I can't work, so that would be a waste of time. 

This is new information for me though. I thought the 12 month limitation to ESA was due to being contributions based. If they determine WRAG is the outcome, my non paying UC would cease after a year anyway? So effectively the only real benefit to being on UC is if I am placed in the support group.

This stuff is an absolute minefield and I would consider myself reasonably clued up and financially aware! 

Yamor

If the result of the WCA is that you are fit for work, then any conditionality placed on you should still take into account any continuing health conditions or disabilities. See the section headed "Claimants found fit for work" here: https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2025-0769/199._Work_Capability_Assessment_outcomes-Guidance_V23.0.pdf

There is no 12 month limit in UC.

Muttleythefrog

Altior said:

Muttleythefrog said:

The WCA does not determine if you are fit to work or not. Get that out of your mind if it is currently there.. that's a line for general reference (rather easier than saying 'you did not get enough points to qualify for Limited capability for work or trigger a limited capability for work related activity descriptor'). The WCA has clear criteria surrounding various activities with disability descriptors which you are assessed against as to determine which, if any, apply. There are some non functional descriptors also. The criteria is widely available but ask for link if you cannot find. A fit note becomes irrelevant once the determination is made - that will result in one of three outcomes - 'fit for work' (you did not meet sufficient criteria of disablement), Limited capability for work (ESA classification WRAG), or limited capability for work related activity (ESA classification support group). A fit note is basically just a temporary stop gap for the assessment period (meant to last 3 months!) to flag up you currently can't do your/a job due to illness, injury, disability.

LCW (WRAG) is time limited to year, LCWRA (Support Group) currently is not.

Evidence you provide should focus on the activities and descriptors or at least be corroborative of claimed difficulties or diagnosed conditions (which can help explain the disablements).... general stuff like 'cannot currently work' would be fairly useless.

If you are classified to WRAG or Support Group in ESA assessment and then apply for UC that status should transfer across.

Thanks.

Yes I reviewed the descriptors before populating the ESA50 form. Predominately so that my written evidence correlates with the criteria it is assessed against.

It's the improbable but possible ' 'fit for work'  outcome I'm finding difficult to reconcile. I would be in effective limbo then. DWP/UC concluding I am fit to work, but legally unable to (as well as unable to, in practice). I believe the medic can reverse it but I can't work, so that would be a waste of time. 

This is new information for me though. I thought the 12 month limitation to ESA was due to being contributions based. If they determine WRAG is the outcome, my non paying UC would cease after a year anyway? So effectively the only real benefit to being on UC is if I am placed in the support group.

This stuff is an absolute minefield and I would consider myself reasonably clued up and financially aware! 

Yeah sorry the LCW (equivalent of WRAG) of UC not 12 month limited... corrected my post. In terms of outcome... yes anything possible... unfortunately assessment outcomes for the WCA (and for the unrelated but similar mechanism of assessment regarding PIP) can be notoriously awry of reality particularly in the first instance... it's not uncommon for example for PIP claimant to go from scoring zero points across all activities and be awarded maximum PIP after appeal. It can be like guiding a supermarket trolley. But eventually one way or another usually I imagine decisions end up accurate over time or after challenge.

Why would you be legally unable to work? 

As per post and above post... the conditions placed on you should you be found 'fit for work' can be adapted to take into account health/disabilities.

And to confirm.. if you were to get ESA and then claim UC the ESA would be deducted as unearned income from UC monthly awards. Government plan to merge NS ESA and NS JSA into a single time limited benefit... when, what name, how long time limited... not known. You're already aware of the impending changes to UC payments regarding the health element (as it is referred to usually) for new claims from other thread.

I know you're looking at the financial aspect of this alongside things like stoozing.. I think you should look to what also makes life easier to manage and remember that choosing the right financial path which may not be easy to determine may not mean much in the end alongside other issues of that path. Things like (re)assessment and prospective benefit rule changes can be quite disabling and stressful to claimants.. while micromanaging financial products also could provide sources of anxiety and stress. I was not surprised in your other thread one or two advised simplifying your arrangements... and I was conscious of your post where you effectively wonder if the  micromanagement and technical indulgence is a substitute for what you're now lacking from not working. Consider your health in all this.

Altior

There are so many dynamics to my overall situation. 

Something I have not disclosed as it's not directly relevant, I have a long term objective in my mind and that is to reach pension access age. Now I realise most advice on here will be not to dip into pension early. However that was in my plans before I got forced to stop work. What I need to do is bridge that gap now and keep my head above water, once I have pension access, everything else will fall into place, I won't need recourse to benefits hopefully (until State pension if it's still in situ). 

The government has moved the goalposts on that, so for me it will be 57 instead of 55 in my original planning. 

In regard to stoozing yes it's probably obsessive, but there is something compelling about using the credit system to make a nice profit. I cannot get across how mentally challenging it would be to give it up. Not just the challenge of stoozing itself, searching for accounts, calculating the best use of capital, maintaining my spreadsheet etc, but the prospect of throwing the 'profit' away. Currently it probably matches my benefit income. Overpaying the mortgage would be similarly soul destroying, giving up capital yielding 6-7% to pay off debt at 2%. But I have to force myself to consider the bigger picture. At least that would reduce my monthly mortgage repayment.

Another aspect is that, whilst a big chunk of my capital is offset by unsecured debt (0%), pretty much the worst that can happen if I am unable to settle the unsecured debt is a CCJ and charge on my property. So it's not in my planning at all, but I am aware that if the worst came to the worst, I could still maintain my mortgage repayments with my existing capital. If I unwind stoozing and/or overpay the mortgage, that won't be the case. I could somehow lose the benefit income on UC as well (as we are touching on in this thread), without stoozing or benefits I would have practically no income. Just the yield on £15Kish at best.

The legal aspect of a fit note comes from my management experience. In the past I worked for a very stingy company, non salaried staff only got SSP after three days waiting. Every now and again we would have staff that were signed off but wanted to come back early as all they had coming in was SSP. The HR people wouldn't allow it, they informed us that it was against employment law to have someone return to work before the fit note terminated, even if they claimed to have fully recovered. It was one of the criteria of the RTW process, that the fit note had lapsed (where one had been supplied). 

Jackie1813

It is not illegal to return to work before a sick note has expired. Guidance states " you should return as soon as you feel able" with your employers agreement. It was perhaps your company policy.

Altior

Jackie1813 said:

It is not illegal to return to work before a sick note has expired. Guidance states " you should return as soon as you feel able" with your employers agreement. It was perhaps your company policy.

At the time, HR definitely claimed it breached employment law. The legislation may have changed, or they were simply misinforming us  However we were all working under pressure at that time, so not something that finance researched ourselves. I've looked at my current fit note and it states 'I advise you that you are not fit to work. That will be the case for xx/xx/xx to xx/xx/xx. I will need to assess your fitness for work again at the end of this period.' Though this is from a private clinic. 

Muttleythefrog

Altior said:

There are so many dynamics to my overall situation. 

..

The legal aspect of a fit note comes from my management experience. In the past I worked for a very stingy company, non salaried staff only got SSP after three days waiting. Every now and again we would have staff that were signed off but wanted to come back early as all they had coming in was SSP. The HR people wouldn't allow it, they informed us that it was against employment law to have someone return to work before the fit note terminated, even if they claimed to have fully recovered. It was one of the criteria of the RTW process, that the fit note had lapsed (where one had been supplied). 

Absolutely.... and of course change is always assured... possibly including regarding credit options, interest rates, investment options... benefit rules.. benefit qualification... your health. There seems a psychological need of efficiency to avoid not getting maximum output... but of course there will always be a more advantageous financial option... something my now trader estranged wife reminds me daily because every other sentence starts 'if I'd have bought/sold x at time/date y...'.... and then usually continues with 'but you interrupted me so I didn't'...."but I was in bed asleep then"....'now you've just interrupted me buying z.. look the price has shot up'..lol

As above.. sounds more likely a company policy.. not necessarily a bad one as if there was to be a problem of early return like worsened injury then issues could arise. You'd be legally entitled to work elsewhere anyway and some jobs wouldn't necessarily conflict with a reason you can't do current or last job. 

Altior

Yes, FOMO as it were. And competing influences at times.

One scenario is reversible. If I don't apply for UC now, before April or before July, I can still do it later on after contributions based ESA has ended. Though would potentially mean missing out on the additional support payments on UC with the April cut off, because of legislative changes that have been highlighted to me. 

Winding down stoozing, and going from circa £70K short term capital to £16K isn't reversible. That's the call, basically, and it's a big one. What I really ideally to know before making it is the outcome of the WCA, once it has been scheduled. I could hedge a little bit by making an overpayment to my mortgage by the 31st Dec deadline.

I did identify that it's Serco carrying the WCA out apparently, I'm not sure that changes anything.