Sick leave over Xmas

Altior

Ella_fella said:

Altior said:

Is this a random hypothetical, or a genuine scenario? If a genuine scenario, what dates do the fit note span?

Is the compelled leave due to shutdown part of statutory annual leave, or discretionary? 

For these purposes let's assume that the GPs sick note runs from Xmas Eve and the following week, and the shutdown is compelled leave i.e. one would have to save holidays out of their annual entitlement to cover the shutdown period. 

If it's timed to game the system, or looks to have been, a fit note starting 24th that coincides pre-booked leave, it's a very risky thing to pursue in my opinion. The HR dept (or whatever they are called in this organisation), will likely want to play it safe. But it is risky.

I feel key though for me is whether the shut down leave is part of the statutory annual leave (law), or annual entitlement (policy). If it's policy and they are still getting their statutory leave when not ill, they aren't missing out on anything.

I'm not aware of it being tested in tribunal or court. 

LightFlare

I seem to recall that there was a different approach to carrying over annual leave depending on whether it was statutory allowance or anything in excess of

itsthelittlethings

I think it’s probably at the company’s discretion.

Ella_fella

Altior said:

Ella_fella said:

Altior said:

Is this a random hypothetical, or a genuine scenario? If a genuine scenario, what dates do the fit note span?

Is the compelled leave due to shutdown part of statutory annual leave, or discretionary? 

For these purposes let's assume that the GPs sick note runs from Xmas Eve and the following week, and the shutdown is compelled leave i.e. one would have to save holidays out of their annual entitlement to cover the shutdown period. 

If it's timed to game the system, or looks to have been, a fit note starting 24th that coincides pre-booked leave, it's a very risky thing to pursue in my opinion. The HR dept (or whatever they are called in this organisation), will likely want to play it safe. But it is risky.

I feel key though for me is whether the shut down leave is part of the statutory annual leave (law), or annual entitlement (policy). If it's policy and they are still getting their statutory leave when not ill, they aren't missing out on anything.

I'm not aware of it being tested in tribunal or court. 

Not sure if two separate points are being conflated here which may be down to myself; in my original post I mentioned a scenario of self certificating the week prior to Xmas as per company policy THEN if the sickness continued thereafter a GPs sick note would have to cover the remainder of the sickness from Xmas Eve onwards over the Xmas period, assuming the individual wasn't well enough to return to work until the New Year. 

There is no additional "allowance" in annual holidays to cover the Xmas shutdown, as I mentioned previously the individual would have to retain or allocate X amount of days from their contractual allowance to cover these days. Would this be policy in this scenario?

kimwp

Ella_fella said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ella_fella said:

If a companies holiday period runs from January to December and it has a shut down period over Xmas where one has to use their annual holiday allocation to cover this shutdown, if one was unable to attend work prior to and during Xmas due to sickness (also covering some days prebooked as holidays prior to the Xmas shutdown) then didn't return from sickness until the New Year would the business have to allow the employee to carry over holiday into the following year? (Assuming they would be paid company sick pay rather than SSP)

Even if it's policy states that it doesn't allow the carry over of holidays from one year to the next and the absence wouldn't be classified technically as LTS?

If so, would the Xmas Bank Holidays be included in the holidays allowed to be carried over? 

I would expect under these circumstances that the employee messing around like this would be wise to spend the Christmas period looking for new employment as they may be at serious risk of being disposed of in some way, come the new year.

Not sure where your comments come from regards "messing around" as am sure it isn't an uncommon phenomena that employees do have periods of genuine sickness which span the Xmas holidays and still aren't able to return to work after Xmas. 

Illness can be brought on by holidays - reduction in cortisone reduces ability to fend off bugs, plus Christmas get-togethers are a great way to be exposed to new bugs. (Exactly wording may not be correct, currently in the throes of a cold!)

sheramber

If you are genuinely sick worrying about holiday leave should be low down on the radar. 

What does the staff handbook say about sick leave and holidays?

Altior

Ella_fella said:

Altior said:

Ella_fella said:

Altior said:

Is this a random hypothetical, or a genuine scenario? If a genuine scenario, what dates do the fit note span?

Is the compelled leave due to shutdown part of statutory annual leave, or discretionary? 

For these purposes let's assume that the GPs sick note runs from Xmas Eve and the following week, and the shutdown is compelled leave i.e. one would have to save holidays out of their annual entitlement to cover the shutdown period. 

If it's timed to game the system, or looks to have been, a fit note starting 24th that coincides pre-booked leave, it's a very risky thing to pursue in my opinion. The HR dept (or whatever they are called in this organisation), will likely want to play it safe. But it is risky.

I feel key though for me is whether the shut down leave is part of the statutory annual leave (law), or annual entitlement (policy). If it's policy and they are still getting their statutory leave when not ill, they aren't missing out on anything.

I'm not aware of it being tested in tribunal or court. 

Not sure if two separate points are being conflated here which may be down to myself; in my original post I mentioned a scenario of self certificating the week prior to Xmas as per company policy THEN if the sickness continued thereafter a GPs sick note would have to cover the remainder of the sickness from Xmas Eve onwards over the Xmas period, assuming the individual wasn't well enough to return to work until the New Year. 

There is no additional "allowance" in annual holidays to cover the Xmas shutdown, as I mentioned previously the individual would have to retain or allocate X amount of days from their contractual allowance to cover these days. Would this be policy in this scenario?

Our company offices shut down for Christmas, but what they do is treat it as bonus leave. So you'd get for example 25 days, + public holidays + the bonus leave. The bonus leave can't be used for any other time of the year.

So in that example, someone who is ill for the bonus leave is no worse off than someone who isn't, as the bonus leave is not an option. Giving someone signed off those three days to take at a different time of their choosing would make them better off than those who had to take their bonus AL in the shutdown.

The possible exception I would make is if the shutdown leave is included in the 28 days of statutory entitlement. From a management perspective, not one of law. 

MattMattMattUK

Ella_fella said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ella_fella said:

If a companies holiday period runs from January to December and it has a shut down period over Xmas where one has to use their annual holiday allocation to cover this shutdown, if one was unable to attend work prior to and during Xmas due to sickness (also covering some days prebooked as holidays prior to the Xmas shutdown) then didn't return from sickness until the New Year would the business have to allow the employee to carry over holiday into the following year? (Assuming they would be paid company sick pay rather than SSP)

Even if it's policy states that it doesn't allow the carry over of holidays from one year to the next and the absence wouldn't be classified technically as LTS?

If so, would the Xmas Bank Holidays be included in the holidays allowed to be carried over? 

I would expect under these circumstances that the employee messing around like this would be wise to spend the Christmas period looking for new employment as they may be at serious risk of being disposed of in some way, come the new year.

Not sure where your comments come from regards "messing around" as am sure it isn't an uncommon phenomena that employees do have periods of genuine sickness which span the Xmas holidays and still aren't able to return to work after Xmas. 

Employees suddenly deciding they are sick whilst on holiday so they should get that holiday back is always something that employers have found particularly unpalatable, combine that with claiming it over the Christmas period, bank holidays on top and then trying to insist that they carry that into the next year is an employee taking the proverbial. If that person had been there less than two years that would be it, more than two years most would manage then out. 

Ella_fella

MattMattMattUK said:

Ella_fella said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ella_fella said:

If a companies holiday period runs from January to December and it has a shut down period over Xmas where one has to use their annual holiday allocation to cover this shutdown, if one was unable to attend work prior to and during Xmas due to sickness (also covering some days prebooked as holidays prior to the Xmas shutdown) then didn't return from sickness until the New Year would the business have to allow the employee to carry over holiday into the following year? (Assuming they would be paid company sick pay rather than SSP)

Even if it's policy states that it doesn't allow the carry over of holidays from one year to the next and the absence wouldn't be classified technically as LTS?

If so, would the Xmas Bank Holidays be included in the holidays allowed to be carried over? 

I would expect under these circumstances that the employee messing around like this would be wise to spend the Christmas period looking for new employment as they may be at serious risk of being disposed of in some way, come the new year.

Not sure where your comments come from regards "messing around" as am sure it isn't an uncommon phenomena that employees do have periods of genuine sickness which span the Xmas holidays and still aren't able to return to work after Xmas. 

Employees suddenly deciding they are sick whilst on holiday so they should get that holiday back is always something that employers have found particularly unpalatable, combine that with claiming it over the Christmas period, bank holidays on top and then trying to insist that they carry that into the next year is an employee taking the proverbial. If that person had been there less than two years that would be it, more than two years most would manage then out. 

Again you've totally misinterpreted or chosen to ignore the OP - there was no mention of "suddenly deciding they are sick whilst on holiday". 

LightFlare

Ella_fella said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ella_fella said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Ella_fella said:

If a companies holiday period runs from January to December and it has a shut down period over Xmas where one has to use their annual holiday allocation to cover this shutdown, if one was unable to attend work prior to and during Xmas due to sickness (also covering some days prebooked as holidays prior to the Xmas shutdown) then didn't return from sickness until the New Year would the business have to allow the employee to carry over holiday into the following year? (Assuming they would be paid company sick pay rather than SSP)

Even if it's policy states that it doesn't allow the carry over of holidays from one year to the next and the absence wouldn't be classified technically as LTS?

If so, would the Xmas Bank Holidays be included in the holidays allowed to be carried over? 

I would expect under these circumstances that the employee messing around like this would be wise to spend the Christmas period looking for new employment as they may be at serious risk of being disposed of in some way, come the new year.

Not sure where your comments come from regards "messing around" as am sure it isn't an uncommon phenomena that employees do have periods of genuine sickness which span the Xmas holidays and still aren't able to return to work after Xmas. 

Employees suddenly deciding they are sick whilst on holiday so they should get that holiday back is always something that employers have found particularly unpalatable, combine that with claiming it over the Christmas period, bank holidays on top and then trying to insist that they carry that into the next year is an employee taking the proverbial. If that person had been there less than two years that would be it, more than two years most would manage then out. 

Again you've totally misinterpreted or chosen to ignore the OP - there was no mention of "suddenly deciding they are sick whilst on holiday". 

Well - if they were sick before the holiday then they could/should have cancelled the booked leave and would probably have a doctors note in place.

can you elaborate on exact dates/timescales

Booked leave started/due to end = xxx
Fell Ill = yyy
Expected return to work = zzz

Personally, it would depend on the exact illness and attendance history of the employee before I would take any “action”