Your advice please - Lufthansa flight from Buenos Aires to LHR

I_did_this32

Hi,

We recently flew back from Buenos Aires to London, via Frankfurt with Lufthansa.

They changed the flight from 17:45 to 23:59 the day before we were due to fly. The change resulted in us missing the original connecting flight meaning that we eventually arrived in London at 20:50 rather than 12:45 - not a nice way to finish a great trip.

i contacted Lufthansa, believing that I would be eligible for compensation but they declared that I wasn’t, quoting Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004.

Does anybody have any views on whether I should persue it? 

Thank you

TadleyBaggie

It depends on the root cause of the delay.

eskbanker

I_did_this32 said:

i contacted Lufthansa, believing that I would be eligible for compensation but they declared that I wasn’t, quoting Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004.

These are the regulations that govern flight delays and cancellations - as implied by the number they were created by the EU in 2004, and they were then retained in UK law after Brexit.  As the start and end point of your journey were both outside the EU, Lufthansa may be arguing that the EU regulations don't apply, but if that is their point then you'd need to highlight to them that the UK ones do apply.

However, if they're making a different point then you'd need to clarify exactly what it was....

TadleyBaggie

Since when has Frankfurt been outside the EU?

eskbanker

TadleyBaggie said:

Since when has Frankfurt been outside the EU?

From OP:

I_did_this32 said:

We recently flew back from Buenos Aires to London, via Frankfurt with Lufthansa.

They changed the flight from 17:45 to 23:59 the day before we were due to fly. The change resulted in us missing the original connecting flight meaning that we eventually arrived in London at 20:50 rather than 12:45 - not a nice way to finish a great trip.

Claims under these regulations are based on end-to-end journeys, not individual flights within those.

Westin

TadleyBaggie said:

Since when has Frankfurt been outside the EU?

That's not what eskbanker said. 

eskbanker said:

I_did_this32 said:

i contacted Lufthansa, believing that I would be eligible for compensation but they declared that I wasn’t, quoting Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004.

These are the regulations that govern flight delays and cancellations - as implied by the number they were created by the EU in 2004, and they were then retained in UK law after Brexit.  As the start and end point of your journey were both outside the EU, Lufthansa may be arguing that the EU regulations don't apply, but if that is their point then you'd need to highlight to them that the UK ones do apply.

However, if they're making a different point then you'd need to clarify exactly what it was....

I_did_this32

eskbanker said:

I_did_this32 said:

i contacted Lufthansa, believing that I would be eligible for compensation but they declared that I wasn’t, quoting Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004.

These are the regulations that govern flight delays and cancellations - as implied by the number they were created by the EU in 2004, and they were then retained in UK law after Brexit.  As the start and end point of your journey were both outside the EU, Lufthansa may be arguing that the EU regulations don't apply, but if that is their point then you'd need to highlight to them that the UK ones do apply.

However, if they're making a different point then you'd need to clarify exactly what it was....

Thank you for the replies.
The email I received from Lufthansa said.. "Kindly note that Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 applies to flights departing from EU member states and flights arriving in EU member states from third countries. As your journey starts in Argentina and ends in The United Kingdom we cannot accommodate your request for compensation according to Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004". 
So yes, I believe they are arguing that EU regs don't apply on the basis that the endpoint (final destination, UK) is outside of the EU. From what eskbanker states, it may be worth a follow up to point out that Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 was retained in the UK following Brexit... although it sounds a bit of a grey area!

eskbanker

I_did_this32 said:

eskbanker said:

I_did_this32 said:

i contacted Lufthansa, believing that I would be eligible for compensation but they declared that I wasn’t, quoting Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004.

These are the regulations that govern flight delays and cancellations - as implied by the number they were created by the EU in 2004, and they were then retained in UK law after Brexit.  As the start and end point of your journey were both outside the EU, Lufthansa may be arguing that the EU regulations don't apply, but if that is their point then you'd need to highlight to them that the UK ones do apply.

However, if they're making a different point then you'd need to clarify exactly what it was....

Thank you for the replies.
The email I received from Lufthansa said.. "Kindly note that Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 applies to flights departing from EU member states and flights arriving in EU member states from third countries. As your journey starts in Argentina and ends in The United Kingdom we cannot accommodate your request for compensation according to Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004". 
So yes, I believe they are arguing that EU regs don't apply on the basis that the endpoint (final destination, UK) is outside of the EU. From what eskbanker states, it may be worth a follow up to point out that Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 was retained in the UK following Brexit... although it sounds a bit of a grey area!

I don't believe it's a grey area - it's a simple fact that EU airlines operating flights into the UK are within the scope of the UK 261 regulations, per article 3.1.b.i:

1. This Regulation shall apply:

(a) to passengers departing from an airport located in the United Kingdom;

(b) to passengers departing from an airport located in a country other than the United Kingdom to an airport situated in —

(i) the United Kingdom if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier or a UK air carrier; or [...]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/3

EU airlines will naturally be more familiar with the fact that they can rely on third country to third country journeys being outside the EC regulations, but if they operate flights to/from the UK then they are bound by the relevant UK legislation, however unfamiliar they may claim to be with it....