QDR - Sainsbury’s (Unpaid Fuel) Threatening Letter

Mildly_Miffed

Car_54 said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

prowla said:

If there is no evidence then how can there be a charge?

There will be. QDR will have been passed it by Sainsburys.

It's between the OP and QDR, not the OP and Sainsburys. The OP does not appear to have contacted QDR yet.

The evidence presumably consists of footage showing *a person* filling up the OP's car with fuel.

It is very unlikely that QDR have any evidence that the OP is that person.

Meanwhile, "somebody unknown" used the OP's card to buy snacks in the kiosk.

The OP does not deny they and their car were there. They do not appear sure they didn't have fuel at the same time. They are willing to pay the £25 for the fuel that was put into their car.

The only question remaining is whether paying Sainsburys £25 is adequate. It is not. They need to pay QDR £25 for the fuel, plus a reasonable admin fee to cover their costs etc - but is £65 reasonable?

The OP has two choices.
1. Engage with QDR, not Sainsburys.
2. Wait for it to reach court. Because it's a civil debt, "balance of probability" is the test that will be applied.

One of these will be far cheaper than the other.

dan_2490

I’m not saying 100% it was not me that put the fuel in. I remember the day specifically as is the day we went on holiday, so a smaller fill up of fuel for the trip to the airport is definitely possible, I just can’t recall it is the honest answer, so would like to see any evidence they have to help me help them with their enquiry. I have asked the solicitors for this, we’ll see if that’s given.

Not saying it is the case, but if I have filled up, gone into the store to pay, made a payment for some items but not been charged for my fuel, then surely Sainsbury's are liable as much as I am, I made a reasonable effort to pay for my goods as far as I understand the law.

As mentioned previously, if there’s a debt for fuel I’m more than happy to pay that, but all the additional fees seem a little unnecessary. Moreover, the fact I’ve been allowed to return to said petrol station and fill up multiple times since doesn’t sit right with me, surely they’ve flagged my reg.

eskbanker

dan_2490 said:

Not saying it is the case, but if I have filled up, gone into the store to pay, made a payment for some items but not been charged for my fuel, then surely Sainsbury's are liable as much as I am, I made a reasonable effort to pay for my goods as far as I understand the law.

Specifically which legislation are you hoping to rely on there?

GDB2222

Car_54 said:

eddddy said:

Regarding the £65 admin fee - there would probably need to be very clear and obvious signs at the petrol station stating contractual terms something like:

"If you take petrol and leave without paying, you are agreeing to pay for the petrol plus a £65 admin fee at a later date."

There is no need for such a sign. The £65 is not part of any contract with Sainsburys. QDR are pursuing a debt, and IF that debt is legitimate then they are entitled to recover their reasonable costs.

I don’t think that is right, but I am happy to hear your argument. Unless there’s a contractual agreement to pay such costs, why would you think that they are payable?

Mildly_Miffed

dan_2490 said:

I’m not saying 100% it was not me that put the fuel in. I remember the day specifically as is the day we went on holiday, so a smaller fill up of fuel for the trip to the airport is definitely possible, I just can’t recall it is the honest answer, so would like to see any evidence they have to help me help them with their enquiry. I have asked the solicitors for this, we’ll see if that’s given.

So there we go.

You agree you were there.
You find the scenario that you put £25 in eminently likely.
You have no evidence of paying more than £6, and agree you bought £6 of snacks.

Not saying it is the case, but if I have filled up, gone into the store to pay, made a payment for some items but not been charged for my fuel, then surely Sainsbury's are liable as much as I am, I made a reasonable effort to pay for my goods as far as I understand the law.

No...

You put £25 of fuel in your car, you walked in to the kiosk, you bought snacks, you clearly made no attempt to say "pump four, please", even though they would have almost certainly said "and any fuel?" - and then you walked out, having put just six quid on your card.

It's not exactly the heist of the century. It's a simple sin of omission - but it's one that's had to be chased up, and costs have been incurred in that chasing.

Moreover, the fact I’ve been allowed to return to said petrol station and fill up multiple times since doesn’t sit right with me, surely they’ve flagged my reg.

That's totally irrelevant.

dan_2490

Mildly_Miffed said:

dan_2490 said:

I’m not saying 100% it was not me that put the fuel in. I remember the day specifically as is the day we went on holiday, so a smaller fill up of fuel for the trip to the airport is definitely possible, I just can’t recall it is the honest answer, so would like to see any evidence they have to help me help them with their enquiry. I have asked the solicitors for this, we’ll see if that’s given.

So there we go.

You agree you were there.
You find the scenario that you put £25 in eminently likely.
You have no evidence of paying more than £6, and agree you bought £6 of snacks.

Not saying it is the case, but if I have filled up, gone into the store to pay, made a payment for some items but not been charged for my fuel, then surely Sainsbury's are liable as much as I am, I made a reasonable effort to pay for my goods as far as I understand the law.

No...

You put £25 of fuel in your car, you walked in to the kiosk, you bought snacks, you clearly made no attempt to say "pump four, please", even though they would have almost certainly said "and any fuel?" - and then you walked out, having put just six quid on your card.

It's not exactly the heist of the century. It's a simple sin of omission - but it's one that's had to be chased up, and costs have been incurred in that chasing.

Moreover, the fact I’ve been allowed to return to said petrol station and fill up multiple times since doesn’t sit right with me, surely they’ve flagged my reg.

That's totally irrelevant.

Agreed, and that’s why if indeed I did put the fuel in (awaiting for any evidence that I did), I’m more than happy to pay for it, at worst a mistake on the cashier and my end,

How is it clear I didn’t say pump 4 please? I may well have said that, as I do every single time I go into that station, and as you say, they ask every time anyway, I can say with certainty I wouldn’t have said no. 

Mildly_Miffed

dan_2490 said:

How is it clear I didn’t say pump 4 please? I may well have said that, as I do every single time I go into that station, and as you say, they ask every time anyway, I can say with certainty I wouldn’t have said no. 

So you think you DID specify the pump, but the cashier forgot to charge for the fuel, and you still didn't notice in the amount you paid...?

Vitor

You’ve already taken the right step by asking their "solicitors" (debt collectors in reality) for evidence. Don’t speculate about what might have happened seven weeks ago. Either they can show the fuel went into your car, or they can’t.

If, as you say, you went inside and made a genuine attempt to pay for whatever you’d bought, then any failure of the cashier or the till system isn’t your liability. Contract law only requires you to take reasonable steps to pay, not to guarantee their systems work perfectly.

If they provide proper evidence that £25 of fuel wasn’t paid for, you can settle that amount. The extra £65 “admin fee” is just a made-up add-on to see who will pay it. There’s no legal basis for it and you’re not obliged to hand it over.

Keep everything in writing, don’t phone them, and don’t admit liability unless they actually prove a debt. These usually peter out when challenged properly.

facade

Mildly_Miffed said:

dan_2490 said:

How is it clear I didn’t say pump 4 please? I may well have said that, as I do every single time I go into that station, and as you say, they ask every time anyway, I can say with certainty I wouldn’t have said no. 

So you think you DID specify the pump, but the cashier forgot to charge for the fuel, and you still didn't notice in the amount you paid...?

To be fair, the digits on the cardreader display are miniscule (probably by intent) and without my reading glasses I can hardly read them, so I could easily be charged £70 or £100 instead of my usual £10 for fuel, (I might notice if there were a dozen digits rather than 4 though), so it is easy to imagine that the OP just pinged their card without scrutinising the display.

Then if they had later transactions so that when they checked their balance it was "about right" and the garage dropped off the bottom they wouldn't notice.

Herzlos

Mildly_Miffed said:

The only question remaining is whether paying Sainsburys £25 is adequate. It is not. They need to pay QDR £25 for the fuel, plus a reasonable admin fee to cover their costs etc - but is £65 reasonable?

The OP has two choices.
1. Engage with QDR, not Sainsburys.
2. Wait for it to reach court. Because it's a civil debt, "balance of probability" is the test that will be applied.

One of these will be far cheaper than the other.

Whilst there may be a valid debt, it was Sainburys who decided to get QDR to chase it for £65 instead of sending a letter to the OP directly, which would have cost A DVLA lookup and some admin. OP sounds like he'd have paid if that had happened instead.

You could argue that a £65 admin bill is unreasonable given that (a) it's over 2x the cost of the fuel and (b) it's an almost entirely automated process costing maybe £3. 

In OP's shoes I'd make another attempt to pay Sainburyes and reply to QDR offering to pay the owed money but not the inflated admin fees, maybe offer to give them £10 to cover their actual costs.  They'll turn it down but should they pursue it via small claims court OP will then be shown to be reasonable whilst Sainburys isn't trying to do anything to mitigate their costs.