Is a home buyers survey for a small 1 bed flat a waste of money?

MyRealNameToo

somerandomusername said:

It's a top floor flat (2nd floor) and I went to view it last week. Checkout out the windows, had a visual inspection of the tops and bottoms of the walls / corners for damp / mould, had a look for any cracks or fractures along the interior walls etc. I'm not a professional but the flat seems perfectly fine.

It's a tiny little 1 bed flat I reckon the surveyor will be in and out of that place in about 5 minutes and it's going to cost me like £500.

And my thinking is if there is any structural issues then it's the freeholders responsibility to pay and fix it anyway, not mine. So I'm only really concerned with the inside of the flat, which appears totally fine.

If the £500 cost included inspection of plumbing and gas / boiler then I'd pay it, but it doesn't and all he's going to do is walk around looking at the walls / windows and come to the exact same conclusion I have?

The freeholder has to deal with fixing it but then you reimburse them which will often include fees for their time etc 

somerandomusername said:

RAS said:

somerandomusername said:

It's a top floor flat (2nd floor) and I went to view it last week. Checkout out the windows, had a visual inspection of the tops and bottoms of the walls / corners for damp / mould, had a look for any cracks or fractures along the interior walls etc. I'm not a professional but the flat seems perfectly fine.

It's a tiny little 1 bed flat I reckon the surveyor will be in and out of that place in about 5 minutes and it's going to cost me like £500.

And my thinking is if there is any structural issues then it's the freeholders responsibility to pay and fix it anyway, not mine. So I'm only really concerned with the inside of the flat, which appears totally fine.

If the £500 cost included inspection of plumbing and gas / boiler then I'd pay it, but it doesn't and all he's going to do is walk around looking at the walls / windows and come to the exact same conclusion I have?

It's the freeholder's responsibility to fix any structural issues and repairs of any shared "facilities".

You'll be paying for the maintenance and repairs when they send the bill for your portion of the cost. 

Have you taken advice on the likely costs? Is it proportional to the size of the flat, or does each flat pay equal amounts, or what? Will they need scaffold? When's the roof going to need replacing?

Well isn't that what the annual service charge is meant to cover anyway? In case there is an issue that needs to be fixed they have the reserve fund to pay for it. 

No, annual service charge covers routine maintenance, insurance, electricity in the communal areas, staff to make sure people pay on time etc

There may or may not be a reserve/sinking fund, depends on how the building is run. If there is a sinking fund you will likely have to pay upfront to replace the money the previous owner payed in to it. 

Our current place only has a tiny reserve, it was insufficient to cover repairs to a flat roof a couple of years ago so that was an extra amount per unit. At our last place they had a big sinking fund and were actively growing it as there were major works needed in the next few years and the quote for the scaffolding alone was over £1m.

And before you come back with a silly comment, that was a share of freehold property so no there was no rich freeholder skimming money off the top. 

somerandomusername said:

Emmia said:

We've had to pay our share of works - this year it was about £8k for exterior repainting and other repairs, which included scaffolding.

We've also had to fork out £2k for a new fire door to comply with updated regulations, £10k to replace windows and a exterior door that was fundamentally rotten.

We've been here over a decade and in that time there's also been two lots of interior redecoration at ~£2k - £3k a go. Plus our share of plumbing and other small maintenance issues that have arisen.

There's no sinking fund, so the leaseholders pay when the works are scheduled/required.

Jesus, you may as well just be the freeholder... Sounds like you kinda got scammed buying that property. 

Being a freeholder is cheaper, you dont have to pay staff, you can do repairs when you want (even if its to your detriment to wait) etc etc 

Think you need to realign your perceptions of what it's like being a leaseholder. Plus the amounts they were charged were fairly modest compared to some, there have been a fair few news paper articles of people facing 6 figure charges when high rise buildings have found to have significant defects that need fixing. 

silvercar

user1977 said:

silvercar said:

Obviously, they are only looking at the individual flat, not the whole block, so they aren’t going to comment on block issues or explore the whole block for costly issues like subsidence.

Where did you get that idea? They'll be looking at and commenting on the common parts of the building too (to the extent they're able to see them). They're not just going to say the inside of the flat is fine and ignore the massive holes in the roof.

So if you have a survey done on a 10 storey building and you are buying a flat on floor 5, would they actually go and inspect the roof? I doubt it. You pay for a sypurvey based on property value, I really doubt you are getting a survey on the whole building 

user1977

silvercar said:

user1977 said:

silvercar said:

Obviously, they are only looking at the individual flat, not the whole block, so they aren’t going to comment on block issues or explore the whole block for costly issues like subsidence.

Where did you get that idea? They'll be looking at and commenting on the common parts of the building too (to the extent they're able to see them). They're not just going to say the inside of the flat is fine and ignore the massive holes in the roof.

So if you have a survey done on a 10 storey building and you are buying a flat on floor 5, would they actually go and inspect the roof? I doubt it.

They will if access is provided, yes (and will add a disclaimer if they can't - similar to if they can't see any elements of a house). They'll certainly comment to the extent they can about the condition of the common parts of the building.

RedFraggle

somerandomusername said:

Emmia said:

We've had to pay our share of works - this year it was about £8k for exterior repainting and other repairs, which included scaffolding.

We've also had to fork out £2k for a new fire door to comply with updated regulations, £10k to replace windows and a exterior door that was fundamentally rotten.

We've been here over a decade and in that time there's also been two lots of interior redecoration at ~£2k - £3k a go. Plus our share of plumbing and other small maintenance issues that have arisen.

There's no sinking fund, so the leaseholders pay when the works are scheduled/required.

Jesus, you may as well just be the freeholder... Sounds like you kinda got scammed buying that property. 

The freeholder doesn't pay for works, they organise them and collect payment from the leaseholders to cover the cost. I think you'd be wise to gain an understanding of what Leasehold means. 

MyRealNameToo

silvercar said:

user1977 said:

silvercar said:

Obviously, they are only looking at the individual flat, not the whole block, so they aren’t going to comment on block issues or explore the whole block for costly issues like subsidence.

Where did you get that idea? They'll be looking at and commenting on the common parts of the building too (to the extent they're able to see them). They're not just going to say the inside of the flat is fine and ignore the massive holes in the roof.

So if you have a survey done on a 10 storey building and you are buying a flat on floor 5, would they actually go and inspect the roof? I doubt it. You pay for a sypurvey based on property value, I really doubt you are getting a survey on the whole building 

If they can, the likelihood is that there is no general access to it so they won't. Most surveys qualify that it's what they can accesss and they won't be bringing ladders etc. 

They should focus on the flat in question, the outside of the whole building and the communal areas. They obviously can't go into other flats and in our case there is no access to the roof as the top floor is all duplexes and so the communal space ends on the floor below. They did however comment on some water ingress signs in the communal hallway two floors above us. 

A friend operates a firm to connect licensed drone operators with companies having a temporary need for drones. They've done a fair amount with surveyors to look at the roofs of tall buildings that had no practical method of getting to the roof. 

somerandomusername

MyRealNameToo said:

somerandomusername said:

It's a top floor flat (2nd floor) and I went to view it last week. Checkout out the windows, had a visual inspection of the tops and bottoms of the walls / corners for damp / mould, had a look for any cracks or fractures along the interior walls etc. I'm not a professional but the flat seems perfectly fine.

It's a tiny little 1 bed flat I reckon the surveyor will be in and out of that place in about 5 minutes and it's going to cost me like £500.

And my thinking is if there is any structural issues then it's the freeholders responsibility to pay and fix it anyway, not mine. So I'm only really concerned with the inside of the flat, which appears totally fine.

If the £500 cost included inspection of plumbing and gas / boiler then I'd pay it, but it doesn't and all he's going to do is walk around looking at the walls / windows and come to the exact same conclusion I have?

The freeholder has to deal with fixing it but then you reimburse them which will often include fees for their time etc 

somerandomusername said:

RAS said:

somerandomusername said:

It's a top floor flat (2nd floor) and I went to view it last week. Checkout out the windows, had a visual inspection of the tops and bottoms of the walls / corners for damp / mould, had a look for any cracks or fractures along the interior walls etc. I'm not a professional but the flat seems perfectly fine.

It's a tiny little 1 bed flat I reckon the surveyor will be in and out of that place in about 5 minutes and it's going to cost me like £500.

And my thinking is if there is any structural issues then it's the freeholders responsibility to pay and fix it anyway, not mine. So I'm only really concerned with the inside of the flat, which appears totally fine.

If the £500 cost included inspection of plumbing and gas / boiler then I'd pay it, but it doesn't and all he's going to do is walk around looking at the walls / windows and come to the exact same conclusion I have?

It's the freeholder's responsibility to fix any structural issues and repairs of any shared "facilities".

You'll be paying for the maintenance and repairs when they send the bill for your portion of the cost. 

Have you taken advice on the likely costs? Is it proportional to the size of the flat, or does each flat pay equal amounts, or what? Will they need scaffold? When's the roof going to need replacing?

Well isn't that what the annual service charge is meant to cover anyway? In case there is an issue that needs to be fixed they have the reserve fund to pay for it. 

No, annual service charge covers routine maintenance, insurance, electricity in the communal areas, staff to make sure people pay on time etc

There may or may not be a reserve/sinking fund, depends on how the building is run. If there is a sinking fund you will likely have to pay upfront to replace the money the previous owner payed in to it. 

Our current place only has a tiny reserve, it was insufficient to cover repairs to a flat roof a couple of years ago so that was an extra amount per unit. At our last place they had a big sinking fund and were actively growing it as there were major works needed in the next few years and the quote for the scaffolding alone was over £1m.

And before you come back with a silly comment, that was a share of freehold property so no there was no rich freeholder skimming money off the top. 

somerandomusername said:

Emmia said:

We've had to pay our share of works - this year it was about £8k for exterior repainting and other repairs, which included scaffolding.

We've also had to fork out £2k for a new fire door to comply with updated regulations, £10k to replace windows and a exterior door that was fundamentally rotten.

We've been here over a decade and in that time there's also been two lots of interior redecoration at ~£2k - £3k a go. Plus our share of plumbing and other small maintenance issues that have arisen.

There's no sinking fund, so the leaseholders pay when the works are scheduled/required.

Jesus, you may as well just be the freeholder... Sounds like you kinda got scammed buying that property. 

Being a freeholder is cheaper, you dont have to pay staff, you can do repairs when you want (even if its to your detriment to wait) etc etc 

Think you need to realign your perceptions of what it's like being a leaseholder. Plus the amounts they were charged were fairly modest compared to some, there have been a fair few news paper articles of people facing 6 figure charges when high rise buildings have found to have significant defects that need fixing. 

I emailed the management company today and they responded saying they do have a reserve fund that would cover most repairs that they expect to encounter, but also said they cannot guarantee the reserve fund would cover the total cost for extreme unforeseen repairs. 

I suspect what'll likely happen is if they bleed the reserve fund to pay for a repair, they will increase the service charge a bit to restore the fund for the next repair. I'd be ok with this, I'd much prefer they gradually increasing the service charge to replenish it over time rather than hitting me with a £3k bill out of the blue to pay for my share of a repair.

Emmia

somerandomusername said:

MyRealNameToo said:

somerandomusername said:

It's a top floor flat (2nd floor) and I went to view it last week. Checkout out the windows, had a visual inspection of the tops and bottoms of the walls / corners for damp / mould, had a look for any cracks or fractures along the interior walls etc. I'm not a professional but the flat seems perfectly fine.

It's a tiny little 1 bed flat I reckon the surveyor will be in and out of that place in about 5 minutes and it's going to cost me like £500.

And my thinking is if there is any structural issues then it's the freeholders responsibility to pay and fix it anyway, not mine. So I'm only really concerned with the inside of the flat, which appears totally fine.

If the £500 cost included inspection of plumbing and gas / boiler then I'd pay it, but it doesn't and all he's going to do is walk around looking at the walls / windows and come to the exact same conclusion I have?

The freeholder has to deal with fixing it but then you reimburse them which will often include fees for their time etc 

somerandomusername said:

RAS said:

somerandomusername said:

It's a top floor flat (2nd floor) and I went to view it last week. Checkout out the windows, had a visual inspection of the tops and bottoms of the walls / corners for damp / mould, had a look for any cracks or fractures along the interior walls etc. I'm not a professional but the flat seems perfectly fine.

It's a tiny little 1 bed flat I reckon the surveyor will be in and out of that place in about 5 minutes and it's going to cost me like £500.

And my thinking is if there is any structural issues then it's the freeholders responsibility to pay and fix it anyway, not mine. So I'm only really concerned with the inside of the flat, which appears totally fine.

If the £500 cost included inspection of plumbing and gas / boiler then I'd pay it, but it doesn't and all he's going to do is walk around looking at the walls / windows and come to the exact same conclusion I have?

It's the freeholder's responsibility to fix any structural issues and repairs of any shared "facilities".

You'll be paying for the maintenance and repairs when they send the bill for your portion of the cost. 

Have you taken advice on the likely costs? Is it proportional to the size of the flat, or does each flat pay equal amounts, or what? Will they need scaffold? When's the roof going to need replacing?

Well isn't that what the annual service charge is meant to cover anyway? In case there is an issue that needs to be fixed they have the reserve fund to pay for it. 

No, annual service charge covers routine maintenance, insurance, electricity in the communal areas, staff to make sure people pay on time etc

There may or may not be a reserve/sinking fund, depends on how the building is run. If there is a sinking fund you will likely have to pay upfront to replace the money the previous owner payed in to it. 

Our current place only has a tiny reserve, it was insufficient to cover repairs to a flat roof a couple of years ago so that was an extra amount per unit. At our last place they had a big sinking fund and were actively growing it as there were major works needed in the next few years and the quote for the scaffolding alone was over £1m.

And before you come back with a silly comment, that was a share of freehold property so no there was no rich freeholder skimming money off the top. 

somerandomusername said:

Emmia said:

We've had to pay our share of works - this year it was about £8k for exterior repainting and other repairs, which included scaffolding.

We've also had to fork out £2k for a new fire door to comply with updated regulations, £10k to replace windows and a exterior door that was fundamentally rotten.

We've been here over a decade and in that time there's also been two lots of interior redecoration at ~£2k - £3k a go. Plus our share of plumbing and other small maintenance issues that have arisen.

There's no sinking fund, so the leaseholders pay when the works are scheduled/required.

Jesus, you may as well just be the freeholder... Sounds like you kinda got scammed buying that property. 

Being a freeholder is cheaper, you dont have to pay staff, you can do repairs when you want (even if its to your detriment to wait) etc etc 

Think you need to realign your perceptions of what it's like being a leaseholder. Plus the amounts they were charged were fairly modest compared to some, there have been a fair few news paper articles of people facing 6 figure charges when high rise buildings have found to have significant defects that need fixing. 

I emailed the management company today and they responded saying they do have a reserve fund that would cover most repairs that they expect to encounter, but also said they cannot guarantee the reserve fund would cover the total cost for extreme unforeseen repairs. 

I suspect what'll likely happen is if they bleed the reserve fund to pay for a repair, they will increase the service charge a bit to restore the fund for the next repair. I'd be ok with this, I'd much prefer they gradually increasing the service charge to replenish it over time rather than hitting me with a £3k bill out of the blue to pay for my share of a repair.

If significant works are identified as needing to be done, then you'll need to be ready to pay your share as normally full payment is required... No extended payment plans.

So you should be putting away £100 - £200 a month to cover your possible contribution to a future work programme / larger maintenance cost so it's not a nasty surprise when it comes along.

ryanm8655

itsthelittlethings said:

Personally you can’t put a price on a surveyor. When I bought my flat all the report really said was “I can’t see the roof and there’s not much storage” but nothing major was flagged.

Basically, I don’t know.

Exactly why I didn’t bother with one. Mostly just cover their own !!!!!! and recommend further checks because they aren’t qualified.

I’d have got one if I was completely clueless and didn’t have people around me that are experienced but otherwise I don’t see the value.

eddddy

@somerandomusername - it's not the main thing you're asking, but it sounds like you might be a bit confused about how Service Charges work. In simple terms...

• The freeholder doesn't have to pay for anything. The leaseholders pay for Buildings Insurance, Building Maintenance, Building Repairs etc

• The freeholder arranges the Buildings Insurance, Building Maintenance, Building Repairs, etc - but pays for it using the leaseholders' money
  

• Your lease will say what percentage of the Buildings Insurance, Building Maintenance, Building Repair costs you have to pay. E.g. If there are 10 flats in the block, you might have to pay 10% each. Or it could be that small flats pay 5% and large flats pay 15%, etc
  

• You will almost always have to pay these costs in advance.

• Typically, the freeholder will estimate the costs for the upcoming year, and send you a bill telling you to pay your share in advance

• If it turns out that the freeholder underestimated the costs for the year - they will send you another bill telling you to pay more.

• Sometimes the freeholder will add "a bit extra" to your bill - to build up a reserve fund (but only if your lease allows that)

• If there's a big job that needs doing (e.g. repairing or replacing the roof), the freeholder might send you a separate bill for that (after doing something called a section 20 consultation). And usually, the work won't start until all the leaseholders have paid their share.

So overall, you want to know as much as possible about the condition of the building, as you will have to pay your share of any maintenance and repairs.

And you want to know how much money (if anything) is in the reserve fund - which could be used to pay for any future maintenance and repairs.

ReadySteadyPop

Emmia said:

somerandomusername said:

Emmia said:

We've had to pay our share of works - this year it was about £8k for exterior repainting and other repairs, which included scaffolding.

We've also had to fork out £2k for a new fire door to comply with updated regulations, £10k to replace windows and a exterior door that was fundamentally rotten.

We've been here over a decade and in that time there's also been two lots of interior redecoration at ~£2k - £3k a go. Plus our share of plumbing and other small maintenance issues that have arisen.

There's no sinking fund, so the leaseholders pay when the works are scheduled/required.

Jesus, you may as well just be the freeholder... Sounds like you kinda got scammed buying that property. 

It's a 100year old building (no cladding issues) with costs split 12 ways.  The £8k represents a 10 year gap in redecoration and proper exterior maintenance... It really needed doing.

On the other prices... On one level we chose to replace the patio door, rather than bodging it with filler. It's expensive as it had to be wood, and the windows are also wooden sashes. But the room is no longer draughty and we can open the windows.

I don't think we were scammed. We got a good deal when we bought it as the seller wanted a quick sale and we were FTB with no chain - I think we paid something in the order of £80-£100k less than it could have gone for, a price that nearby flats of a similar size fetched then.

Btw freeholders don't really pay, their costs are passed onto leaseholders via management charges etc.

That is a nice discount.