Looking at DIY probate

Wyndham

When my father in law died, he left everything to my mother in law. She had no idea what to do, so we were helping her through it (i.e. doing most of it, and just ensuring she understood at various points).

For probate we included
All of his sole bank accounts (current and savings accounts)
Half the value of any joint bank accounts
Half the value of the house - based this on a similar one nearby which had sold recently, but there was still a little bit of 'finger in the air about it'.
Half the value of the contents - based on the value declared in the contents insurance.
He also had a massive £20 in premium bonds which was also included.
The car was his, so we valued it using webuyanycar and added that in.

I realised that we didn't have to worry to the penny, and while it should be accurate, if you can show best efforts were made and it's roughly right then you should be OK.

Sorry for your loss.

Savvy_Sue

sm82 said:

Thank you for the condolences. Things have gotten a little more complicated as I'll explain. 
1. Mother according to the will is sole executrix, with myself as the second named if she is unwilling or unable. 

2. As such she told me she just wanted me to deal with everything as she has no knowledge of internet banking, where things are filed, how to use a computer etc (plus 83 and limited mobility) So whilst I was awaiting the death certificate, which I finally now have, I was gathering information, shutting a few website memberships down (i.e. like screwfix, nothing where there was any direct debit attached to or anything outgoing or that hadn't already been settled years ago) - I knew I couldn't touch like that till probate was granted. 

3. then when I drop the death certificate off at the solicitors, i was then told that that despite the "unable or unwilling" in the will, I cannot act as executor unless my mother recuses herself via a deed of renunciation... sigh. I had already started doing a few bits like notifying my dad's pension provider, just to request that they let us know what was needed to be provided to start the ball rolling arranging the spousal pension in terms of documentation - NOT to shut anything down etc - again thinking probate. This could be viewed as intermeddling...

(Snip)

6. Also am I correct in that the PA15 only needs to be sent in with probate - doesn't need to to be produced at any other time (unless will is wanted for something), just needs lodging with the solicitors, but once its signed I can act without fear of an intermeddling charge?

I am no expert, but ...

Point 2: I don't think you need to wait for probate to be granted in order to notify organisations of your father's death. It's definitely not needed for banks: they'll act on sight of the death certificate. If anyone wants probate, they can asked for it. 

Point 3: I can't see that intermeddling is an issue. That's when someone starts doing 'stuff', and then wants to stop. You don't. And doing some stuff doesn't stop you then getting professional help. 

Point 6: who might be concerned about intermeddling? Not your mother. And no-one else has any authority or interest in who applies for probate. 

What's the solicitor said to worry you? If I've missed something, the better informed will tell us! 

RAS

I'm very confused as to why you have dropped a copy of the death certificate into the solicitor's office? What role do they have?

As for the need for renunciation, families manage the the fact that the survivor is not able to actively engage differently.

Providing she has full mental capacity, mum could give you written power of attorney to handle the estate. She could sit with you whilst you make initial calls to bereavement teams and advise them to deal with you henceforth. She could sign letters you've generated. She'll have to sign the probate application, but that should be possible. She could renounce but I've no idea why the solicitors need that information

Some families farm different bits of the estate processing out to different family members.

Whatever she chooses, make sure one question you ask financial providers is their limit for releasing money without probate. Some can just release money straight into her account.

sm82

Savvy_Sue said:

sm82 said:

Thank you for the condolences. Things have gotten a little more complicated as I'll explain. 
1. Mother according to the will is sole executrix, with myself as the second named if she is unwilling or unable. 

2. As such she told me she just wanted me to deal with everything as she has no knowledge of internet banking, where things are filed, how to use a computer etc (plus 83 and limited mobility) So whilst I was awaiting the death certificate, which I finally now have, I was gathering information, shutting a few website memberships down (i.e. like screwfix, nothing where there was any direct debit attached to or anything outgoing or that hadn't already been settled years ago) - I knew I couldn't touch like that till probate was granted. 

3. then when I drop the death certificate off at the solicitors, i was then told that that despite the "unable or unwilling" in the will, I cannot act as executor unless my mother recuses herself via a deed of renunciation... sigh. I had already started doing a few bits like notifying my dad's pension provider, just to request that they let us know what was needed to be provided to start the ball rolling arranging the spousal pension in terms of documentation - NOT to shut anything down etc - again thinking probate. This could be viewed as intermeddling...

(Snip)

6. Also am I correct in that the PA15 only needs to be sent in with probate - doesn't need to to be produced at any other time (unless will is wanted for something), just needs lodging with the solicitors, but once its signed I can act without fear of an intermeddling charge?

I am no expert, but ...

Point 2: I don't think you need to wait for probate to be granted in order to notify organisations of your father's death. It's definitely not needed for banks: they'll act on sight of the death certificate. If anyone wants probate, they can asked for it. 

Point 3: I can't see that intermeddling is an issue. That's when someone starts doing 'stuff', and then wants to stop. You don't. And doing some stuff doesn't stop you then getting professional help. 

Point 6: who might be concerned about intermeddling? Not your mother. And no-one else has any authority or interest in who applies for probate. 

What's the solicitor said to worry you? If I've missed something, the better informed will tell us! 

Thanks, point 2 relates to the fact that without the PA15 I’m not the executor who is 1st in line, so I want to get that confirmed from the solicitor that I just need to have this signed and then can act in complete legality. 

sm82

RAS said:

I'm very confused as to why you have dropped a copy of the death certificate into the solicitor's office? What role do they have?

As for the need for renunciation, families manage the the fact that the survivor is not able to actively engage differently.

Providing she has full mental capacity, mum could give you written power of attorney to handle the estate. She could sit with you whilst you make initial calls to bereavement teams and advise them to deal with you henceforth. She could sign letters you've generated. She'll have to sign the probate application, but that should be possible. She could renounce but I've no idea why the solicitors need that information

Some families farm different bits of the estate processing out to different family members.

Whatever she chooses, make sure one question you ask financial providers is their limit for releasing money without probate. Some can just release money straight into her account.

We do have a power of attorney but my father was the primary attorney, with myself as the backup so will have to wait a couple of months for that to come back from the OPG before that’s amended before I can do something 

RAS

You don't need a Lasting Power of Attorney. It perfectly possible for your mother to give you limited power to act just with regard to the will. Although there's enough other ways for you to do the leg work and fill the forms without needing even that.

But that's irrelevant since you've not explained how and why the solicitors are involved?

Savvy_Sue

sm82 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

sm82 said:

Thank you for the condolences. Things have gotten a little more complicated as I'll explain. 
1. Mother according to the will is sole executrix, with myself as the second named if she is unwilling or unable. 

2. As such she told me she just wanted me to deal with everything as she has no knowledge of internet banking, where things are filed, how to use a computer etc (plus 83 and limited mobility) So whilst I was awaiting the death certificate, which I finally now have, I was gathering information, shutting a few website memberships down (i.e. like screwfix, nothing where there was any direct debit attached to or anything outgoing or that hadn't already been settled years ago) - I knew I couldn't touch like that till probate was granted. 

3. then when I drop the death certificate off at the solicitors, i was then told that that despite the "unable or unwilling" in the will, I cannot act as executor unless my mother recuses herself via a deed of renunciation... sigh. I had already started doing a few bits like notifying my dad's pension provider, just to request that they let us know what was needed to be provided to start the ball rolling arranging the spousal pension in terms of documentation - NOT to shut anything down etc - again thinking probate. This could be viewed as intermeddling...

(Snip)

6. Also am I correct in that the PA15 only needs to be sent in with probate - doesn't need to to be produced at any other time (unless will is wanted for something), just needs lodging with the solicitors, but once its signed I can act without fear of an intermeddling charge?

I am no expert, but ...

Point 2: I don't think you need to wait for probate to be granted in order to notify organisations of your father's death. It's definitely not needed for banks: they'll act on sight of the death certificate. If anyone wants probate, they can asked for it. 

Point 3: I can't see that intermeddling is an issue. That's when someone starts doing 'stuff', and then wants to stop. You don't. And doing some stuff doesn't stop you then getting professional help. 

Point 6: who might be concerned about intermeddling? Not your mother. And no-one else has any authority or interest in who applies for probate. 

What's the solicitor said to worry you? If I've missed something, the better informed will tell us! 

Thanks, point 2 relates to the fact that without the PA15 I’m not the executor who is 1st in line, so I want to get that confirmed from the solicitor that I just need to have this signed and then can act in complete legality. 

But the question remains, who is likely to question the legality of anything you do, which in your case is on behalf of your mother? 

Unless your father's will leaves anything to a cantankerous / demanding relative or friend, I cannot see that it's going to be an issue.

And as RAS says, you could do the work, your mum could sign the probate application, job done.

It sounds as if the solicitor has spooked you. Possibly they're hoping you'll throw up your hands and give the job to them. Don't do this (unless the will is unduly complicated or there are awkward beneficiaries): it will be slow and expensive.

And if the will is complicated / has difficult beneficiaries, do say how ... 

Misha96

sm82 said:

bunnygo said:

I'm sorry for your very recent loss. Be aware that none of this is actually urgent - your priority now is the funeral and making sure things keep running. If all the household bills come from a joint account that should be simple. At this stage, just contact the bereavement team at the bank (there will be a phone number online) and they will guide you through the process. They will just need scans of the death certificate and possibly the will showing the beneficiary - is that your mother?

when you get the death certificates you should also get the 'tell us once' code and info on how to use it - you have 28 days. Use that online and it saves a lot of work; all the government and council departments, state pension, HMRC etc will be informed and will sort out what needs to be changed. you need to contact the financial institutions separately.

The ISA can be transferred to your mother within the ISA shelter under the APS scheme - make sure that happens!

valuations etc: if it is an excepted estate no-one is bothered so don't worry. Mid century furniture is worth around £50-£100 a piece when the time comes, there are dealers.

you don't mention a car; if there is one do check the insurance.

Thank you for the condolences. Things have gotten a little more complicated as I'll explain. 
1. Mother according to the will is sole executrix, with myself as the second named if she is unwilling or unable. 

2. As such she told me she just wanted me to deal with everything as she has no knowledge of internet banking, where things are filed, how to use a computer etc (plus 83 and limited mobility) So whilst I was awaiting the death certificate, which I finally now have, I was gathering information, shutting a few website memberships d but own (i.e. like screwfix, nothing where there was any direct debit attached to or anything outgoing or that hadn't already been settled years ago) - I knew I couldn't touch like that till probate was granted. 

3. then when I drop the death certificate off at the solicitors, i was then told that that despite the "unable or unwilling" in the will, I cannot act as executor unless my mother recuses herself via a deed of renunciation... sigh. I had already started doing a few bits like notifying my dad's pension provider, just to request that they let us know what was needed to be provided to start the ball rolling arranging the spousal pension in terms of documentation - NOT to shut anything down etc - again thinking probate. This could be viewed as intermeddling...

4. I have sold her car/sorted her insurance etc for her, but that was all in her name so there should be no issue there. 

5. I have found the PA15 deed of renunciation form on the UKGov website however, which I can fill out and get signed/witnessed. I'm  curious about a couple of points - Q8 on it  - I'm assuming as she's listed as "sole exectrix" and I'm on there in case of "unable/unwilling" its the "sole executor" option I tick there?. Also she has no email address - so how do I put one in? I can't use mine can I? (unless I set one up purely for this?)

6. Also am I correct in that the PA15 only needs to be sent in with probate - doesn't need to to be produced at any other time (unless will is wanted for something), just needs lodging with the solicitors, but once its signed I can act without fear of an intermeddling charge?

About 20 years ago a family member died leaving his widow as sole executor. I was the back up, like you.

The Widow  could deal with the high street banks we had then but not letters, emails, or online forms. I did all that with her permission. She just signed when and where necessary. She never renounced her executorship and probate was granted to her without any hassle.

It's easy to set up a free email account.

I would have thought the dining room table was a joint asset but good teak sells quite well.

sm82

Savvy_Sue said:

sm82 said:

Savvy_Sue said:

sm82 said:

Thank you for the condolences. Things have gotten a little more complicated as I'll explain. 
1. Mother according to the will is sole executrix, with myself as the second named if she is unwilling or unable. 

2. As such she told me she just wanted me to deal with everything as she has no knowledge of internet banking, where things are filed, how to use a computer etc (plus 83 and limited mobility) So whilst I was awaiting the death certificate, which I finally now have, I was gathering information, shutting a few website memberships down (i.e. like screwfix, nothing where there was any direct debit attached to or anything outgoing or that hadn't already been settled years ago) - I knew I couldn't touch like that till probate was granted. 

3. then when I drop the death certificate off at the solicitors, i was then told that that despite the "unable or unwilling" in the will, I cannot act as executor unless my mother recuses herself via a deed of renunciation... sigh. I had already started doing a few bits like notifying my dad's pension provider, just to request that they let us know what was needed to be provided to start the ball rolling arranging the spousal pension in terms of documentation - NOT to shut anything down etc - again thinking probate. This could be viewed as intermeddling...

(Snip)

6. Also am I correct in that the PA15 only needs to be sent in with probate - doesn't need to to be produced at any other time (unless will is wanted for something), just needs lodging with the solicitors, but once its signed I can act without fear of an intermeddling charge?

I am no expert, but ...

Point 2: I don't think you need to wait for probate to be granted in order to notify organisations of your father's death. It's definitely not needed for banks: they'll act on sight of the death certificate. If anyone wants probate, they can asked for it. 

Point 3: I can't see that intermeddling is an issue. That's when someone starts doing 'stuff', and then wants to stop. You don't. And doing some stuff doesn't stop you then getting professional help. 

Point 6: who might be concerned about intermeddling? Not your mother. And no-one else has any authority or interest in who applies for probate. 

What's the solicitor said to worry you? If I've missed something, the better informed will tell us! 

Thanks, point 2 relates to the fact that without the PA15 I’m not the executor who is 1st in line, so I want to get that confirmed from the solicitor that I just need to have this signed and then can act in complete legality. 

But the question remains, who is likely to question the legality of anything you do, which in your case is on behalf of your mother? 

Unless your father's will leaves anything to a cantankerous / demanding relative or friend, I cannot see that it's going to be an issue.

And as RAS says, you could do the work, your mum could sign the probate application, job done.

It sounds as if the solicitor has spooked you. Possibly they're hoping you'll throw up your hands and give the job to them. Don't do this (unless the will is unduly complicated or there are awkward beneficiaries): it will be slow and expensive.

And if the will is complicated / has difficult beneficiaries, do say how ... 

I’m not spooked in that sense, just want to be sure everything is done correctly. Most of it is because 

a) my mother lives 2.5 hours away from me, so “popping round” to help with documents regularly isn’t exactly an option, plus she doesn’t want to be bothered by phone calls etc (phone scares her a little I think). She will be moving to care home near me eventually- in the midst of finding one and arranging a place
b) she has no email address or understanding of modern tech so granted I could set up a free one, but would be simpler just to use mine as then I wouldn’t miss anything 
c)fathers will just leaves everything to her (apart from one charity bequest). I’ve just had some gifts over the last few years, but they are covered under his NRB, which whilst reduced a bit is not totally used so no IHt to pay there and everything else would be covered under spousal exception.
d) a few have commented why the solicitors were given a copy- they currently hold several original documents that I need (original will etc) and won’t release without seeing it. I can always ask they give it back now that they have seen it once we have those. I’ve no intention letting them do the probate etc as it probably would be quicker for me to sort. They would release to my mother, but she’s of very limited mobility and they can’t make it out to her for over a week for a home visit. 

F) she still has a degree of mental capacity but her memory is going somewhat. (Not dementia, just old age). 

Now maybe I’m just moving quickly here, we’re only able to now sorting the funeral planning due to the delays in the death certificate issuing , it’s simply me trying to keep busy and not think too much.  

RAS

If you are not in IHT territory, then time is not a huge issue. You don't need to worry about getting the will urgently. 

If you are only now organising the funeral, could you organise to take mum to the solicitors when you go up for the funeral? Arrange a meeting beforehand.

And if you are going up, even for a day, or perhaps taking her to your home for a couple of days, could you sit down together for an hour and work through as many bereavement teams as possible?