Ventilation issues in mid-terraced "victorian" grd flr

Swipe

You need to wait until the next cold night to do your tests. No point doing them tonight as it's going to be mild.

WIAWSNB

proformance said:

WIAWSNB said:

Good info, Proformance, thank you.

Does the kitchen extractor vent to the outside, or just recirculate?

Lovely windows and shutters! The latter has good and bad points... If kept closed, the moist air in the room will still get by and condense out on the cold panes. But, since the shutters are cutting down pretty much all the circulating air flow in that room, that condensed water will not be removed. So, using these shutters in the even will almost certainly cause more condensation on the panes. 

They would only help if 'airtight', so prevented the moist air getting to the windows in the first place! Have you compared the windows, or noticed any difference, by having the shutters fully or partly closed, or even kept away from the windows? 

If these shutters were effective at cutting away draughts from the windows, then an instant solution would be to crack open the sashes, and then close the shutters over them. The shutters would prevent you from suffering from cold draughts from the cracked open windows, and the windows themselves would be scrubbed bone dry by the outside draught you allowed through. See how wet the windows are? If you were to open the top and bottom sashes by a quarter inch, and closed the shutters over them to leave them to get on, you'd open them in an hour or so to dry panes. I'm pretty sure.

So, if these shutters are effective at sealing off the windows from the room, then crack open the sashes first, and let it get on! 

The bathroom is probably being looked after well by your new extractor, but it's too far away to help with the front room.  

If the kitchen extractor is not externally venting, then it's pretty useless here. Any chance of making it external if it currently isn't? 

That gas fire - is it open? Does it allow the room to ventilate up the chimney?

Anyhoo, in our position I would not fit trickles to the windows for two reasons - one, they look 'orrible. Two, they ain't needed, as you can achieve the same venting by simply cracking them open. You can have a lock fitted to secure the sashes where it's needed - in fact it should be a standard fitment. 

Thanks for your thorough response! Addressing each point/question below:

"Have you compared the windows, or noticed any difference, by having the shutters fully or partly closed, or even kept away from the windows?" - I haven't tried this, but I will try tonight. We usually close the shutters every evening at around 20:00 and reopen at 07:00.

I will try the following scenarios and monitor the results:
- Only partially closing them overnight (i.e. leave reasonable gaps) 
- Keep only the top half open overnight
- Keep only the bottom half open overnight
- Keep all shutters entirely oven overnight 

"If the kitchen extractor is not externally venting, then it's pretty useless here. Any chance of making it external if it currently isn't?" - How would I go about ascertaining if it is or isn't, do you think? Here's a photo of the extractor fan (from the inside, if that helps.



"That gas fire - is it open? Does it allow the room to ventilate up the chimney?" - Sorry, it's not gas, it's wood-burning. We seldom use it, even in winter. The door stays shut. And yes, it does evacuate through the chimney (which we have professionally swept every year).

"Anyhoo, in our position I would not fit trickles to the windows for two reasons - one, they look 'orrible. Two, they ain't needed, as you can achieve the same venting by simply cracking them open. You can have a lock fitted to secure the sashes where it's needed - in fact, it should be a standard fitment." - Yeah, I think the "'orrible" aesthetic is why my carpenter was so keen to dismiss the idea! I don't think it is commonplace to install trickle vents in timber windows. Anecdotally, looking around the 'hood, I don't see any examples of such. Not that that makes it right, mind.


...Lastly, given the extra context, what are we now thinking about "air bricks"?

Is the kitchen extractor in another chimney recess? If so, possibly it's using this to vent out from.
How to confirm? See the hood's own SS chimney? Look for vents or a grille on its side, prob near the top. Run it, and see if the air flow comes out of that. If it doesn't, then it 'must' be going outside. 
Where does your bathroom extractor vent out to? Is there an outlet on the outside wall on the garden side? If so, is there another one beside it?
You have a wood burner stove? Cooool. Not just 'cos they are gorgeous and fab and kill people, but because they can effectively vent a room or house. All you need to do is crack open the controls on it - instant drawing ventilation.
Yes, since you are keeping the existing windows, the upper frame is fairly narrow for vents. In any case, they'd be pointless, 'cos you'll achieve the same - better - result by slightly opening a sash. 
Air brick? No. Why? 'Cos you can either open a sash, or crack open the stove vent, or both - all far more effective, and far more aesthetic. Your joiner should stick to joining.
Anyhoo, a potential realisation - what are the issues you are actually trying to address? 
Windows running with condie? Ok, when does this happen? I'm guessing it starts in the late evening, and you wake up t'next day to a flood? In which case, ignore it as it starts in the evening, and then - just before you head off to bed - open the bottom and top sashes, not even all of them - try, say, the bottom sections of the side ones, and the top of the middle - by a good half inch, pull away the shutters, shut off the radiator, crack open the stove's burner vent a tad, and firmly close the sitting room door to the rest of the flat.
Guess what you'll find in that room the next morning? Three spiders, possibly a leaf, a very chilly ~14oC ambient temp, and bone dry windows.
Once you've seen the stupendous effect of what is called 'ventilation', then you can adapt this process to better suit your desired results. For example, if you don't even want damp windows starting in the evening, then either close the shutters tightly with the sashes cracked open as described above (experiment with which ones, and how many...), or else leave the louvres open enough to provide privacy, or swung slightly away from the windows, and then experiment with sash cracked open tweaks, possibly just a few mm with a few sashes.

proformance

WIAWSNB said:

proformance said:

WIAWSNB said:

Good info, Proformance, thank you.

Does the kitchen extractor vent to the outside, or just recirculate?

Lovely windows and shutters! The latter has good and bad points... If kept closed, the moist air in the room will still get by and condense out on the cold panes. But, since the shutters are cutting down pretty much all the circulating air flow in that room, that condensed water will not be removed. So, using these shutters in the even will almost certainly cause more condensation on the panes. 

They would only help if 'airtight', so prevented the moist air getting to the windows in the first place! Have you compared the windows, or noticed any difference, by having the shutters fully or partly closed, or even kept away from the windows? 

If these shutters were effective at cutting away draughts from the windows, then an instant solution would be to crack open the sashes, and then close the shutters over them. The shutters would prevent you from suffering from cold draughts from the cracked open windows, and the windows themselves would be scrubbed bone dry by the outside draught you allowed through. See how wet the windows are? If you were to open the top and bottom sashes by a quarter inch, and closed the shutters over them to leave them to get on, you'd open them in an hour or so to dry panes. I'm pretty sure.

So, if these shutters are effective at sealing off the windows from the room, then crack open the sashes first, and let it get on! 

The bathroom is probably being looked after well by your new extractor, but it's too far away to help with the front room.  

If the kitchen extractor is not externally venting, then it's pretty useless here. Any chance of making it external if it currently isn't? 

That gas fire - is it open? Does it allow the room to ventilate up the chimney?

Anyhoo, in our position I would not fit trickles to the windows for two reasons - one, they look 'orrible. Two, they ain't needed, as you can achieve the same venting by simply cracking them open. You can have a lock fitted to secure the sashes where it's needed - in fact it should be a standard fitment. 

Thanks for your thorough response! Addressing each point/question below:

"Have you compared the windows, or noticed any difference, by having the shutters fully or partly closed, or even kept away from the windows?" - I haven't tried this, but I will try tonight. We usually close the shutters every evening at around 20:00 and reopen at 07:00.

I will try the following scenarios and monitor the results:
- Only partially closing them overnight (i.e. leave reasonable gaps) 
- Keep only the top half open overnight
- Keep only the bottom half open overnight
- Keep all shutters entirely oven overnight 

"If the kitchen extractor is not externally venting, then it's pretty useless here. Any chance of making it external if it currently isn't?" - How would I go about ascertaining if it is or isn't, do you think? Here's a photo of the extractor fan (from the inside, if that helps.



"That gas fire - is it open? Does it allow the room to ventilate up the chimney?" - Sorry, it's not gas, it's wood-burning. We seldom use it, even in winter. The door stays shut. And yes, it does evacuate through the chimney (which we have professionally swept every year).

"Anyhoo, in our position I would not fit trickles to the windows for two reasons - one, they look 'orrible. Two, they ain't needed, as you can achieve the same venting by simply cracking them open. You can have a lock fitted to secure the sashes where it's needed - in fact, it should be a standard fitment." - Yeah, I think the "'orrible" aesthetic is why my carpenter was so keen to dismiss the idea! I don't think it is commonplace to install trickle vents in timber windows. Anecdotally, looking around the 'hood, I don't see any examples of such. Not that that makes it right, mind.


...Lastly, given the extra context, what are we now thinking about "air bricks"?

Is the kitchen extractor in another chimney recess? If so, possibly it's using this to vent out from.
How to confirm? See the hood's own SS chimney? Look for vents or a grille on its side, prob near the top. Run it, and see if the air flow comes out of that. If it doesn't, then it 'must' be going outside. 
Where does your bathroom extractor vent out to? Is there an outlet on the outside wall on the garden side? If so, is there another one beside it?
You have a wood burner stove? Cooool. Not just 'cos they are gorgeous and fab and kill people, but because they can effectively vent a room or house. All you need to do is crack open the controls on it - instant drawing ventilation.
Yes, since you are keeping the existing windows, the upper frame is fairly narrow for vents. In any case, they'd be pointless, 'cos you'll achieve the same - better - result by slightly opening a sash. 
Air brick? No. Why? 'Cos you can either open a sash, or crack open the stove vent, or both - all far more effective, and far more aesthetic. Your joiner should stick to joining.
Anyhoo, a potential realisation - what are the issues you are actually trying to address? 
Windows running with condie? Ok, when does this happen? I'm guessing it starts in the late evening, and you wake up t'next day to a flood? In which case, ignore it as it starts in the evening, and then - just before you head off to bed - open the bottom and top sashes, not even all of them - try, say, the bottom sections of the side ones, and the top of the middle - by a good half inch, pull away the shutters, shut off the radiator, crack open the stove's burner vent a tad, and firmly close the sitting room door to the rest of the flat.
Guess what you'll find in that room the next morning? Three spiders, possibly a leaf, a very chilly ~14oC ambient temp, and bone dry windows.
Once you've seen the stupendous effect of what is called 'ventilation', then you can adapt this process to better suit your desired results. For example, if you don't even want damp windows starting in the evening, then either close the shutters tightly with the sashes cracked open as described above (experiment with which ones, and how many...), or else leave the louvres open enough to provide privacy, or swung slightly away from the windows, and then experiment with sash cracked open tweaks, possibly just a few mm with a few sashes.

Hi,

1) Is the kitchen extractor in another chimney recess? - It is housed in what looks like a chimney recess, but from the outside, I cannot see where air would actually escape. On the other side of the wall is the neighbour's terraced house. But I presume it goes somewhere up the hood??

2) Where does your bathroom extractor vent out to? - Air brick vent on the side (attached)

3) All you need to do is crack open the controls on it - instant drawing ventilation - That's a mighty good idea - I will do that right away! Rather than only opening the vent in the morning, I could keep it open 24/7, no?

So far, I'm liking your suggestions as they result in no additional outlay !

Some more photos (ignore my unappetising porridge) 

WIAWSNB

Is there a grille on the other side of that SS 'chimney'?
Your bathroom extractor vents out that decorative wall air brick? Blimey! 
Is the bathroom extractor effective? If you lift a sheet of bog roll slowly towards it, at what point is it sucked up on the grille?
Does your bathroom mirror demist under the action of the extractor? How long does it take?
Does the humidifier setting keep it running - if so, how long for?

Try out the ventilation fix just to convince yourself. Ie, with damp windows of an eve, do what I said - windows cracked open, heating off in the sitting room, door closed. How does this compare with what you normally find in the morning?
If that works, then just 'tweak' it to your presence whilst still getting the desired results.