Proof of Funds - old savings. Is PoF a system that Martin needs to look at.

jnorth55

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

I'm not. I'm simply frustrated at having to answer all the questions that have nothing to do with the actual issue this thread was about. 

Banks don't use laser printers. They use high volume matrix printers. If you work in an industry that involves printing knowledge you'd know the difference, but even if you don't you should be able to tell. 

user1977

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

Banks don't use laser printers. They use high volume matrix printers. If you work in an industry that involves printing knowledge you'd know the difference, but even if you don't you should be able to tell. 

What clues should we be looking for?

jnorth55

artyboy said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

Seconded.

if this situation were really so endemically bad across the industry as the OP is implying, the start-up I'm working with would already have £billions of contracts.

More's the pity, it doesn't.

This is a good example of why this thread is frustrating. No where have I said this is an endemic issue on a wide scale. I've said the opposite repeatedly. I've clearly said that even it's only a few people it's still an issue. 

fistfulofsteel

jnorth55 said:

fistfulofsteel said:

OP, are you neurodivergent? This whole thread reads like an ND person frustratedly seeking clarity over a process that doesn't have black and white rules and neurotypical people getting angry because they think the communication style is wrong.

! I have no idea why this forum allows this kind of comment. Your showing your prejudice there. If someone is ND they deserve respect & not to have their ND used as an explanation of why some people have thrown insults at them or repeatedly questioned what they have said. I'm not as it happens, but there's no way I'd recommend this forum to anyone who is. I work with ND people on a regular basis. 

I'm neurodivergent and spend a lot of time talking to other ND people. Hitting this kind of invisible barrier when trying to access services is extremely common, especially when a process doesn't have clear rules but relies on a professional's opinion of how "normal" you are able to come across. It's a very real accessibility issue.

jnorth55

fistfulofsteel said:

jnorth55 said:

fistfulofsteel said:

OP, are you neurodivergent? This whole thread reads like an ND person frustratedly seeking clarity over a process that doesn't have black and white rules and neurotypical people getting angry because they think the communication style is wrong.

! I have no idea why this forum allows this kind of comment. Your showing your prejudice there. If someone is ND they deserve respect & not to have their ND used as an explanation of why some people have thrown insults at them or repeatedly questioned what they have said. I'm not as it happens, but there's no way I'd recommend this forum to anyone who is. I work with ND people on a regular basis. 

I'm neurodivergent and spend a lot of time talking to other ND people. Hitting this kind of invisible barrier when trying to access services is extremely common, especially when a process doesn't have clear rules but relies on a professional's opinion of how "normal" you are able to come across. It's a very real accessibility issue.

Then I apologise, as I did, ironically, misread your comment. I agree & the 'normal' or 'mainstream' thing does seem to be part of the issue in terms of how the system can sometimes not work as it should. 

jnorth55

user1977 said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

Banks don't use laser printers. They use high volume matrix printers. If you work in an industry that involves printing knowledge you'd know the difference, but even if you don't you should be able to tell. 

What clues should we be looking for?

You shouldn't be looking for any. That's the point. An official, legal or financial document should always be different to one anyone can print themselves. 

jnorth55

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

I'm not. I'm simply frustrated at having to answer all the questions that have nothing to do with the actual issue this thread was about. 

Banks don't use laser printers. They use high volume matrix printers. If you work in an industry that involves printing knowledge you'd know the difference, but even if you don't you should be able to tell. 

Rubbish.  Most people couldn’t tell the difference whatsoever.  I’m convinced you’re trolling now so I’m done here.

I've been dragged into repeatedly answering the odd comments by people thinking official documents are the same as they can print on the cheap printers they have. Don't insult other people by assuming they can't tell the difference. Most people can, easily. 

user1977

jnorth55 said:

user1977 said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

Banks don't use laser printers. They use high volume matrix printers. If you work in an industry that involves printing knowledge you'd know the difference, but even if you don't you should be able to tell. 

What clues should we be looking for?

You shouldn't be looking for any. That's the point. An official, legal or financial document should always be different to one anyone can print themselves. 

But in the real world, they're not.

Bank statements aren't intended to have any inherent security features - if historically they were on preprinted headed paper or an odd format, that would have been for the bank's own convenience/economy, not because they were predicting their customers waving them around as proof of ID etc.

jnorth55

user1977 said:

jnorth55 said:

user1977 said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

Banks don't use laser printers. They use high volume matrix printers. If you work in an industry that involves printing knowledge you'd know the difference, but even if you don't you should be able to tell. 

What clues should we be looking for?

You shouldn't be looking for any. That's the point. An official, legal or financial document should always be different to one anyone can print themselves. 

But in the real world, they're not.

Bank statements aren't intended to have any inherent security features - if historically they were on preprinted headed paper or an odd format, that would have been for the bank's own convenience/economy, not because they were predicting their customers waving them around as proof of ID etc.

Seriously, why are you going on about this? If you can't be bothered to check the AML guidance & see that it states that print-out are not acceptable or if they are used should be certified then why are you commenting? If some solicitors are ok with print-out then who knows why. it might be that the finances are straight forward or for a smaller deposit & therefore nothing to do with what this thread was about. 

I also never said anything about security features, so this again is gaslighting. Bank statements are not accepted as proof of ID, or at least haven't been for some years & when they were they had to be from the bank not printed out. In the 'real world' not only are official documents always different from print-outs that anyone can do, but most people know that & actually understand why they are. 

EssexHebridean

noitsnotme said:

EssexHebridean said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

Chief_of_Staffy said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

Indeed & I'm not suggesting that a new system is set up. One suggestion that I mentioned is simply to have the AML check process available as a separate service that can be done prior to putting in offers etc. 

What I find odd about some of the comments is that in other areas we wouldn't tolerate a system that works like this, at least not one without some kinds of process for ensuring people who get stuck in the cracks aren't simply ignored. 

Who is going to pay for that?  Like I said, lobby your MP.  Going round and round in circles with a bunch of strangers on an internet forum is achieving nothing.

jnorth55 said:

noitsnotme said:

This thread is just going round in circles, from both sides.  The 'system' is not perfect and there will inevitably be some people that fall through the cracks.  Unfortunately no-one is going to spend millions of pounds creating a new system to help what is most probably a very small minority of people.  Lobby your MP, perhaps they will take it further on your behalf.

On the general point I think some people who think this is only a small number of people affected aren't thinking ahead. App only accounts can be hard to get even recent statements from & with more & more people using them as their main account such issues might well increase. 

I've been using app only banking for years (Monzo and Starling).  I've literally just checked on Monzo and can easily retrieve statements from as far back as when I opened account.  If it worries you that much then diarise downloading statements once a year and keep your own digital copies and/or print out your own hard copies.

Who is going to pay for that? The client, as they so as part of the whole process already. The only difference is that solicitors could offer it as a standalone service, so that people can do it when they want. That would also speed up the buying process as it reduces delays once offers are in. 

I have no idea why people keep jumping to conclusions or ignoring what has already been said. I have extensive documentation of all accounts etc. going back a number of years. I get statements regularly or download them whilst doing SE returns. 

Why do you assume that I mention the digital account thing for no valid reason? If you look into it you will see that there are a large number of people who have had issues with getting statements from them. You're confusing seeing them in the app & getting physical copies. 

You brought up the statement issue, not me!  The banks offer certified copies via the apps.  You can get physical copies by downloading from the app and printing them out.  I have NEVER had a problem using these printed out statements with anyone that has needed them, including a solicitor.

What a complete waste of time this thread is.

You should have! a statement printed out is not accepted for any form of identification or proof based process. Think about it. If the AML checks are there to weed out ML's why would any solicitor think a statement printed out by the client is valid.

All mine were printed. I downloaded PDF statements from my banks and printed them on my trusty 20 year old Brother B&W printer. Stapled them and handed them over.

This does rather indicate that the system isn't fit for purpose on another issue then, as if the client can print off the statements & there isn't any corroboration process then they could easily be altered. 

How do they corroborate traditional bank statements that have been sent in the post?  Any 12 year old with a computer and a printer could produce something that looks exactly like a statement posted out by a bank.

Impossible, as they are printed by different types of printer & are on official paper. 

Even if that's true, do you think a solicitor knows what this special paper looks and feels like?  This thread needs locking, it's gotten beyond ridiculous.

*edited - because I don't want to end up on the naughty step!

It is actually usually possible to detect pretty much immediately whether a statement you are being handed is a posted one or not, but it’s not anything to do with the paper as such. Far more simply, the posted ones are almost always folded in a sharp crease (because they’ve been done by machine, not by hand) and they are also usually less “pristine” than ones that have been printed out by the account holder. Not the most technical approach in the world, but it gives you enough of a solid base to be able to say “You’ve printed these from your online banking haven’t you” with sufficient conviction that if they have been, the person usually just says “yes” without trying to deny it further. 😂

The point I was making to the OP is that if anyone really wanted to fake a proper bank statement, it wouldn’t be that difficult.

Ive just looked at some real bank statements that were received in the post and there is nothing at all special about the paper they are printed on.  It’s just standard paper printed on by a laser jet printer, as described by the poster above.

I’m not sure if the OP is just deliberately trying to wind everyone up or is just imagining issues that don’t actually exist.

Yes - I got that, and inadvertently I may have helped anyone who wants to to create a slightly better fake than they otherwise could!  

Unsurprisingly I see a fair amount of other people's bank statements - although very rarely my own these days, and while there are sometimes odd differences, yes, generally speaking, it's pretty standard paper (ironically enough quite a few organisations actually use a lower grade paper than most of us would feed into our own home printers) and the sort of print that you can get from any standard but high-end printer. It's not like banknote printing where the paper AND print processes were always quite different from anything you could easily recreate yourself.