Proof of Funds - old savings. Is PoF a system that Martin needs to look at.

jnorth55

I'll try to be brief!

I'm in my 60's & worked in an industry at quite a high level for a shop chain & then another part of the industry through the 80's & 90's - both companies that haven't existed for a long time now. I then ran my own business in the same industry & was saving to try to buy a house without a mortgage. I then had a bereavement which meant I inherited a house & to be honest I thought I'd live there for rest of my time.

So, basically I have savings going back more than 20 / 30 years, long before the AML checks came in in 2017 & whilst I have the most recent few years records of transferring accounts etc. I didn't keep older records after the usual 6 years thing.

Conveyancers keep telling me that as I can't provide proof of, for example, wage payments decades ago that's a problem. Likewise I sold off a lot of personal possessions a few years ago & can't provide proof of all of those transactions as it wasn't done via Ebay etc. (specialist collectors items etc).

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has bought for cash & had similar issues, or indeed any experience of dealing with solicitors who seem unable to understand that prior to 2017 most people didn't keep always keep every bank statement or wage slip from decades ago.

I reckon Martin should look into this issue as over the years I've read about, heard about such a lot of people who struggle with the process even when the amount is for a deposit. There need to be checks of course but it seems to me what is being ignored is;

1) when people have been saving for decades, including all the years before AML / PoF checks were introduced, it simply wasn't required to save every wage slip & bank statement.

2) we're encouraged to change banks for better interest or just to keep the market competitive, but this also means that older bank records from closed accounts sometimes aren't accessible after a certain number of years. Likewise if you worked for a company that is no longer trading its almost impossible to get information such as old employment records. 


Thanks.

kipperman

I'll be interested in the responses as just had to go through this with a gifted deposit for our daughter. Solicitor/conveyancer uses an app called Thirdfort which is far from user friendly: I told it I was retired, then it asks for payslips. No indication as to exactly what proof is required ( just asks you to scan "documentary proof") nor indeed how far back to go. Like you, I tart funds around, so often no easily found distinct chain. Have filled it in best as I can, and just hoping it is sufficient. Again, I agree that AML is necessary, but one does feel a bit like I have just had a financial rectal probing.

fwor

It's an interesting point, but what are you asking for? 

Are you asking that people (including drug dealers, money launderers and corrupt officials from other countries) should be able to say "but I don't have evidence for the legal receipt of this money" and it will all be OK?

The problem is that if they make the system easier for you, as an honest person, won't that simply make it easy for the non-honest people as well?

Brie

I think that the problem is that different solicitors may have different ideas about what is required.  It's like banks requiring a passport from someone who never has, nor intends to leave the UK.  

jnorth55

fwor said:

It's an interesting point, but what are you asking for? 

Are you asking that people (including drug dealers, money launderers and corrupt officials from other countries) should be able to say "but I don't have evidence for the legal receipt of this money" and it will all be OK?

The problem is that if they make the system easier for you, as an honest person, won't that simply make it easy for the non-honest people as well?

I'll try to answer your point, but it isn't straight forward. In terms of proof of legal receipt of money I would guess if you ask anyone you know over the age of, say 40, if they have all their wage slips from when they first started work or have the same bank account they had then, lots would say no. The AML / PoF rules were brought in in 2017, prior to this people weren't required to keep such records, so most didn't. It was quite normal to keep financial papers for 5 or 6 years & then shred them. In fact it was advised. 
Non-honest people aren't going to keep their money for decades & then try to buy a normal house with it & if someone dishonest wanted to do that I'm sure they'd find a way around any checks. The 'rules' actually aren't the issue as there's a lot of scope for solicitors to use their common sense, it's simply that they often don't & the legal profession itself has complained that the system is confusing. As it is, in instances where people have saved for decades (which we were always told was a good idea) there is often now no way to prove where that money came from. Don't you think its wrong to say to anyone that if they've worked hard, saved hard all their lives they can't buy a property because they didn't keep 20 or 30 years worth of bank statements & wage slips? Why should the actions of non-honest people affect others in that way? The point is there has to be a system that is fairer than this one. 

Albermarle

Brie said:

I think that the problem is that different solicitors may have different ideas about what is required.  It's like banks requiring a passport from someone who never has, nor intends to leave the UK.  

This is the issue, some conveyancers are a bit over keen and others are more pragmatic.

Conveyancers keep telling me that as I can't provide proof of, for example, wage payments decades ago that's a problem

How many conveyancers/solicitors have actually told you that ? One ? Two ? 

jnorth55

Albermarle said:

Brie said:

I think that the problem is that different solicitors may have different ideas about what is required.  It's like banks requiring a passport from someone who never has, nor intends to leave the UK.  

This is the issue, some conveyancers are a bit over keen and others are more pragmatic.

Conveyancers keep telling me that as I can't provide proof of, for example, wage payments decades ago that's a problem

How many conveyancers/solicitors have actually told you that ? One ? Two ? 

To be honest I can't remember the number but if you look online, & indeed in this forum, you'll see that it's happened to lots of other people also. As I said it used to be quite normal to not keep wage slips & I would guess the number of people who have moved their bank accounts once or indeed several times now is large & increasing. You sometimes can go back to old banks & ask for any records they still have but they don't keep records for decades either. It's simply bizarre that there's a system that allows solicitors to ask for documents that not even the organisations that issued them has a legal requirement to keep. 

Martico

What's your specific problem? I find it hard to believe that you've really been asked for wage slips from decades ago - have you?

user1977

jnorth55 said:

Albermarle said:

Brie said:

I think that the problem is that different solicitors may have different ideas about what is required.  It's like banks requiring a passport from someone who never has, nor intends to leave the UK.  

This is the issue, some conveyancers are a bit over keen and others are more pragmatic.

Conveyancers keep telling me that as I can't provide proof of, for example, wage payments decades ago that's a problem

How many conveyancers/solicitors have actually told you that ? One ? Two ? 

To be honest I can't remember the number

So are you saying you have been to several firms of conveyancers and they have all told you that they need a paper trail going back decades? 

If so then you have just been incredibly unlucky, as that sort of absurd request is certainly not typical.

jnorth55

Martico said:

What's your specific problem? I find it hard to believe that you've really been asked for wage slips from decades ago - have you?

I did explain the issue in the initial post. You can also find other examples of similar requests on this forum & elsewhere. The issue is that solicitors don't have specific guidance on how to do the checks except 'proof of the source of income', so if, for example, you had a job 20 or 30 years ago & saved from that the money you now want to spend you have to show where that money came from. Not that you had it all those years ago but where it came from. Even if you were someone who had the same bank account you can't even ask them for statements from that long ago. Likewise if the company is still in business they don't keep records longer than the legal requirement to do so & if they went out of business then it's doubtful you'd be able to access even recent records.

eddddy

Is this a hypothetical question, or has a solicitor actually asked you for wage slips and bank statements from decades ago?

Here's the guidance that the Solicitors Regulation Authority give solicitors. (click on "How far back do I need to check when checking source of funds?") ...
https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/resources/money-laundering/aml-questions-answers/

It says that 6 months of history can be sufficient in some cases, but the higher the risk,  the more 'digging' the solicitor should do.


So if a solicitor really does want you to go back decades, I guess there must be something about you which makes the solicitor think you are very high risk! (i.e. very dodgy!)