Anyone know the practical issues with a type AC outdoor socket?

WIAWSNB

I fitted one to power an electronic charger for a Phev. 

The socket is this fellow: https://www.bgelectrical.uk/uk/wiring-devices/weatherproof-decorative/13a-rcd-socket/WPL22RCD-01 but seemingly type AC models like this have been banned in certain countries as some electronic devices, emitting DC waveforms, can 'blind' it and not cause it to trip when it should. Type 'A' are not affected.

A few times now I have found my charger goes to 'amber' error when I switch on the RCD's socket switch, but it's fine if turned off and left for a bit, or if I do stuff like trip and reset the RCD (not quite sure yet what 'fixes' it...)

I can't see how the RCD can affect the charger - the only 'issue' should be that the RCD might not trip at all. 

Any idea? Ta. 

TadleyBaggie

Your link doesn't work, here is one that does:

https://www.bgelectrical.uk/uk/wiring-devices/weatherproof-decorative/13a-rcd-socket/WPL22RCD-01

WIAWSNB

Thanks. Now fixed.
Now answer my question

Rodders53

Almost certainly that outlet is not rated for EV use at 10 Amps max.

Exactly which make and model of EV mains supply cable (granny lead)?  What does the manual say about an orange light fault?

These connection units check for various things in start up before connecting the car to mains electricity, and then do more checks, including monitoring the temperature of the live pin and fuse to try to prevent damage to the plug and socket.

Most have a RCD built in and some will check for loss of a protective earthed neutral by measuring relative voltages between L, N and E... One of those measuring close to/out of spec could result in said orange fault?  Remaking connections may correct a poor contact or just get a different in spec measurement.

Fitting a proper EVSE would be advised by some... it'll be ready for when you get a proper BEV.

WIAWSNB

It should handle 10A no problem - it's on a dedicated 2.5mm cable from its own 20A MCB in the garage CU.
I do notice the mains plug becomes luke-warm after a couple/few hours charging, but barely perceptible. But the amber comes on on first switch on, never during a charge.
(I've no intention of fitting larger, dedicated, charger as it would need to be fitted on the house rather than the garage. And I have PVs which will provide the whole 2.4kW charge on a bright day.)
Seemingly the amber means a warm socket, not sure if car or mains end, but this amber is on power up, so doesn't make sense.
Ta.

WIAWSNB

Ok, the occasional 'orange' error cannot have anything to do with my RCD being an AC type. 

Seemingly the orange error suggests heat in the mains plug - it has a built-in thermistor in case the wall socket becomes too warm. Why it would have triggered this when it wasn't even powered up, I don't know. Perhaps it's faulty.

Anyhoo, it doesn't appear to be a regular issue. 

Heedtheadvice

You do seem to have your electrical theory back to front somewhat.

The rcd type needs to be aporopriate to the equipment that it is powering. It is not a question of the type of current the powered device is producing or as you wrote 'emitting DC waveforms'. It is a question of the type of fault current that the rcd can detect. This is a safety issue so should not be ignored 'the only 'issue' should be that the RCD might not trip at all. ' as you posted and that should not be ignored.

Best rcd for that job is an appropriately rated type B. That type will detect fault currents of many types. Suitability is for  wide range of electronic loads so should be suitable for whatever car you Connect.

Current rating of the cables (and idealy in this situation including the connected equipment ) should be limited by an appropriate circuit breaker not just the cable to the outdoor socket.

Lengthy charge time can lead to overheating ,( as I think you realise) and the orange light helps to indicate a problem in that area. - just at the plug contacts though? The fact it illuminates from cold initial switch on indicates the monitoring itself has a problem. Possibly moisture in the granny charger amongst others things.

That needs diagnosing and repair...or maybe just replacing with a suitable one for outdoor use.

WIAWSNB

Heedtheadvice said:

You do seem to have your electrical theory back to front somewhat.

The rcd type needs to be aporopriate to the equipment that it is powering. It is not a question of the type of current the powered device is producing or as you wrote 'emitting DC waveforms'. It is a question of the type of fault current that the rcd can detect. This is a safety issue so should not be ignored 'the only 'issue' should be that the RCD might not trip at all. ' as you posted and that should not be ignored.

Best rcd for that job is an appropriately rated type B. That type will detect fault currents of many types. Suitability is for  wide range of electronic loads so should be suitable for whatever car you Connect.

Current rating of the cables (and idealy in this situation including the connected equipment ) should be limited by an appropriate circuit breaker not just the cable to the outdoor socket.

Lengthy charge time can lead to overheating ,( as I think you realise) and the orange light helps to indicate a problem in that area. - just at the plug contacts though? The fact it illuminates from cold initial switch on indicates the monitoring itself has a problem. Possibly moisture in the granny charger amongst others things.

That needs diagnosing and repair...or maybe just replacing with a suitable one for outdoor use.

Thanks - I totally get what you are saying. 

Not sure where the backtofront is, tho', except perhaps regarding the type of RCD to use - and I was going by a sparky on another forum when I mentioned type 'A'. You say 'B', and I'm about to call the whole thing off. 

Actually, I'm going to stick with the AC for the time being.

My ponderance was whether the type of RCD could be contributing to the charger error. I didn't think it could, and you and the other sparky are in agreement with this.

So the only remaining issue is whether the RCD I am using - a type AC - could be compromised in its safety-effectiveness when used with an electronic device such as this charger. The answer would appear to be 'yes', but my take on this is 'possibly', and not worth seeking to replace it at the moment.

I have the IP-RCD socket inside an easy-opening external box, just so I don't have to clip and unclip the awkward cover of the socket itself, and it's now very usefully being used for lawn mowing and suchlike as well, whereas I used to run an extension cable from inside the garage. It works as it should.

The charger, if it does go orange, pulls itself together by turning the socket off and on again. 

I am not concerned by a possible reduction in protection when using the charger.

Yes, I understand cable size and MCB protection, too, hence me using approx 1m 2.5T&E fed by its own 20A breaker.

Heedtheadvice

It was just the statement 'emitting ' DC waveforms that caught my attention!

I would urge you to have installed an rcd that complies with the appropriate British Standards. That protects against faults. Why protect against an AC fault but not DC. The latter can be much more dangerous under fault conditions

For you and others see https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/years/2024/100-may-2024/rcds-for-electric-vehicle-supply-equipment-evse/

From that IET website:

"Where no protection against DC residual current is provided in the EVSE, Regulation 722.531.3.101 of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 requires a Type B RCD to be installed. Where protection against DC residual current is provided in the EVSE, a Type A or Type F RCD can be used. This is typically provided by a Type A RCD in conjunction with a residual direct current detecting device (RDC-DD), complying with BS IEC 62955 as appropriate to the nature of the residual and superimposed currents and recommendation of the manufacturer of the charging equipment."

It is not a possible reduction in  safety you are considering it is a  actual reduction compared to a Type B.

WIAWSNB

Heedtheadvice said:

It was just the statement 'emitting ' DC waveforms that caught my attention!

I would urge you to have installed an rcd that complies with the appropriate British Standards. That protects against faults. Why protect against an AC fault but not DC. The latter can be much more dangerous under fault conditions

For you and others see https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/years/2024/100-may-2024/rcds-for-electric-vehicle-supply-equipment-evse/

From that IET website:

"Where no protection against DC residual current is provided in the EVSE, Regulation 722.531.3.101 of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 requires a Type B RCD to be installed. Where protection against DC residual current is provided in the EVSE, a Type A or Type F RCD can be used. This is typically provided by a Type A RCD in conjunction with a residual direct current detecting device (RDC-DD), complying with BS IEC 62955 as appropriate to the nature of the residual and superimposed currents and recommendation of the manufacturer of the charging equipment."

It is not a possible reduction in  safety you are considering it is a  actual reduction compared to a Type B.

Thanks - ah, I see.
'emitting DC waveform' is just an interpretation of what I've been reading - 'switching' PSUs can what, 'emit?', DC voltages that can confuse some RCDs? 
Blimey, that article you linked to is heavy! I never realised there were different types of RCD!
My main house CU has one in its main switch, and I've always had a metal-bodied RCD socket mounted just inside the garage door for when using extension cables outdoors - and I used this for the Mode 2 charging for my car until I fitted the dedicated IP-rated RCD socket outside a couple of weeks ago so that I didn't have to leave the garage door open for the thick cable.
I understand that Mode 2 chargers have built in protection in any case, and it seems absurd to me as a layman that plugging such a charger into a socket, RCD or not, internal or external, is dangerous in any sense, as this is simply what they are intended for - to be plugged in to a 'domestic socket'. That's as far as the instructions say. 
I was completely ignorant of the different RCD socket types, tho' (other than latching and non-latching) and fitted a 'normal' type (AC) which is now being used for all my external work - mowers, hedge cutters, and tools. I won't be avoiding plugging my Type 2 in there too, as that would be bonkers
But I accept it 'might' not be as safe as if used with the A or B type.
I shall hopefully live with the consequences.

WIAWSNB

Curious - what actually comes out the car end plug of a Type 2 charger? 

AC or DC, and what sort of voltage? 

Ta.