Parcel monkey disregard for consumer rights. Need legal advice.

mta999

Okell said:

@Gehngus

You might want to read this thread (there are two cases)  Couriers, lost parcels and unfair terms — MoneySavingExpert Forum

And here:  Parcel protection insurance | MSE

That is really interesting (both those articles) thank you

user1977

A_Geordie said:

user1977 said:

Gehngus said:

Someone above said I couldn't consider consumer rights because I sold it from a business account whereas the courts in this case states "the Defendant was clearly acting as a trader and the Claimant was clearly a consumer."

I paid for a service?

So consumer rights do still apply?

No, unlike the case quoted you were a business paying for a service, so the additional consumer rights implied by statute do not apply.

Did the OP say they were acting in the capacity of a business? Maybe I missed it but I think they said they used a business account, that doesn't automatically mean they were acting in the capacity of a business. I think everyone was very quick to assume that the OP was trading as a business but an earlier post suggests the OP is no longer trading at the time of the sale

A business which has ceased trading and is disposing of its assets is still a business rather than a consumer. 

A_Geordie

user1977 said:

A business which has ceased trading and is disposing of its assets is still a business rather than a consumer. 

Struggling to understand that one. If the company ceases trading, how can you still be trading as that business when selling off the assets? Either you have ceased trading or you haven't, there's no in between. Certainly, if the business was a limited company then it would be unlawful to continue trading after you have ceased, leading to sanctions or worst case, imprisonment. 

Let's say the OP was self employed as a sole trader and decided to stop trading, why couldn't those assets be transferred over to the OP upon cessation and for the OP to act in the capacity as a consumer to sell off those assets?

MyRealNameToo

A_Geordie said:

user1977 said:

Gehngus said:

Someone above said I couldn't consider consumer rights because I sold it from a business account whereas the courts in this case states "the Defendant was clearly acting as a trader and the Claimant was clearly a consumer."

I paid for a service?

So consumer rights do still apply?

No, unlike the case quoted you were a business paying for a service, so the additional consumer rights implied by statute do not apply.

Did the OP say they were acting in the capacity of a business? Maybe I missed it but I think they said they used a business account, that doesn't automatically mean they were acting in the capacity of a business. I think everyone was very quick to assume that the OP was trading as a business but an earlier post suggests the OP is no longer trading at the time of the sale and the account was was simply used due to there being an existing number of reviews, but also that it couldn't be converted to a private account - seems a plausible explanation to me. 

If Parcel Monkey was used outside of eBay and the business account then again, it could be argued the OP was acting as a consumer. 

The OP has never clarified the back story as to why they were selling what they describe as a "commercial boiler". 

The fact it's designed for a commercial environment and the fact the OP sold it via a business account suggests but doesnt confirm it was probably a commercial rather than personal arrangement. It's certainly far from certain though as maybe they did have a commercial boiler in their home for some reason and have sold it having installed a domestic boiler. As usual with pertinent questions side stepped answers are based on assumption. 

sonearandyetsofa

The advice I've read on packaging large items for parcel companies is that you package it sufficiently to survive a 1 - 2m drop onto hard concrete! If you need to transport something heavy and fragile you are 100% better off using a private, man with van type service or a more specialised transport company. The parcel company here absolutely will argue that the goods were insufficiently packaged. I'm not sure it's an unreasonable argument from them, given that you've said your packaging consists of triple-layer cardboard and shrink wrap, with some parts of it sticking out and wrapped. All shrink wrap does is keep dirt out, triple layered cardboard alone isn't going to absorb enough of the shock on a heavy item when it inevitably gets dropped/tossed about, and any sticky-out bits are going to catch on other things and possibly cause problems. That's why imported goods and stuff in the original packaging comes with polystyrene, or double-boxed with the cavity filled with something firm and spongy (like polystyrene or bubble-wrap). 

I don't work for a transport company, but I've sent furniture out via parcel companies before. It doesn't matter if you've sent it in such a way as it won't be damaged if someone takes good care of it, because the parcel companies will not take good care of it. It will be put on rollers, conveyor belts, loaded on and off vans, on and off stacker trucks, palletised, de-palletised, dropped, kicked, and knocked about. 

Gehngus

I wasn't acting as a business. I'm actually a builder. This was just a sale of a water boiler that happened to come out of a cafe and was given to me. Nothing to do with my business or the old ebay account.A_Geordie said:

user1977 said:

Gehngus said:

Someone above said I couldn't consider consumer rights because I sold it from a business account whereas the courts in this case states "the Defendant was clearly acting as a trader and the Claimant was clearly a consumer."

I paid for a service?

So consumer rights do still apply?

No, unlike the case quoted you were a business paying for a service, so the additional consumer rights implied by statute do not apply.

Did the OP say they were acting in the capacity of a business? Maybe I missed it but I think they said they used a business account, that doesn't automatically mean they were acting in the capacity of a business. I think everyone was very quick to assume that the OP was trading as a business but an earlier post suggests the OP is no longer trading at the time of the sale and the account was was simply used due to there being an existing number of reviews, but also that it couldn't be converted to a private account - seems a plausible explanation to me. 

If Parcel Monkey was used outside of eBay and the business account then again, it could be argued the OP was acting as a consumer. 

I wasn't acting as a business. I'm actually a builder. This was just the sale of a water boiler that happened to come out of a cafe and was given to me. I used it in my kitchen for a while because I like the retro look of it..the wife did not. Nothing to do with my business or the old ebay account.
I was really trying to work out if the T&cs allow them to damage it from dropping (not carrying, or in transit.) it and the consensus seems to be that if it isn't wrapped in ludicrous amounts of packaging they can treat it however they like?

Gehngus

sonearandyetsofa said:

The advice I've read on packaging large items for parcel companies is that you package it sufficiently to survive a 1 - 2m drop onto hard concrete! If you need to transport something heavy and fragile you are 100% better off using a private, man with van type service or a more specialised transport company. The parcel company here absolutely will argue that the goods were insufficiently packaged. I'm not sure it's an unreasonable argument from them, given that you've said your packaging consists of triple-layer cardboard and shrink wrap, with some parts of it sticking out and wrapped. All shrink wrap does is keep dirt out, triple layered cardboard alone isn't going to absorb enough of the shock on a heavy item when it inevitably gets dropped/tossed about, and any sticky-out bits are going to catch on other things and possibly cause problems. That's why imported goods and stuff in the original packaging comes with polystyrene, or double-boxed with the cavity filled with something firm and spongy (like polystyrene or bubble-wrap). 

I don't work for a transport company, but I've sent furniture out via parcel companies before. It doesn't matter if you've sent it in such a way as it won't be damaged if someone takes good care of it, because the parcel companies will not take good care of it. It will be put on rollers, conveyor belts, loaded on and off vans, on and off stacker trucks, palletised, de-palletised, dropped, kicked, and knocked about. 

sufficiently to survive a 1 - 2m drop onto hard concrete! 
Then I haven't a leg to stand on. The maths say it was dropped from aprox 2meters based on
25kg bending 1mm steel over a 100mm area to a depth of 15mm.
A 25kg object would need to be dropped from approximately 2.36 meters to exert a force of 2740N, enough to cause that damage.

This by coincidence is exactly the same as a 10 lb sledgehammer traveling at approximately 8.24 m/s (a normal builders rate)

MyRealNameToo

Gehngus said:

I wasn't acting as a business. I'm actually a builder. This was just a sale of a water boiler that happened to come out of a cafe and was given to me. Nothing to do with my business or the old ebay account.A_Geordie said:

user1977 said:

Gehngus said:

Someone above said I couldn't consider consumer rights because I sold it from a business account whereas the courts in this case states "the Defendant was clearly acting as a trader and the Claimant was clearly a consumer."

I paid for a service?

So consumer rights do still apply?

No, unlike the case quoted you were a business paying for a service, so the additional consumer rights implied by statute do not apply.

Did the OP say they were acting in the capacity of a business? Maybe I missed it but I think they said they used a business account, that doesn't automatically mean they were acting in the capacity of a business. I think everyone was very quick to assume that the OP was trading as a business but an earlier post suggests the OP is no longer trading at the time of the sale and the account was was simply used due to there being an existing number of reviews, but also that it couldn't be converted to a private account - seems a plausible explanation to me. 

If Parcel Monkey was used outside of eBay and the business account then again, it could be argued the OP was acting as a consumer. 

I wasn't acting as a business. I'm actually a builder. This was just the sale of a water boiler that happened to come out of a cafe and was given to me. I used it in my kitchen for a while because I like the retro look of it..the wife did not. Nothing to do with my business or the old ebay account.
I was really trying to work out if the T&cs allow them to damage it from dropping (not carrying, or in transit.) it and the consensus seems to be that if it isn't wrapped in ludicrous amounts of packaging they can treat it however they like?

HMRC successfully fine hundreds of people every year who claim they arent a business but are. 

Why did a cafe give you their boiler? 

Gehngus

MyRealNameToo said:

Gehngus said:

I wasn't acting as a business. I'm actually a builder. This was just a sale of a water boiler that happened to come out of a cafe and was given to me. Nothing to do with my business or the old ebay account.A_Geordie said:

user1977 said:

Gehngus said:

Someone above said I couldn't consider consumer rights because I sold it from a business account whereas the courts in this case states "the Defendant was clearly acting as a trader and the Claimant was clearly a consumer."

I paid for a service?

So consumer rights do still apply?

No, unlike the case quoted you were a business paying for a service, so the additional consumer rights implied by statute do not apply.

Did the OP say they were acting in the capacity of a business? Maybe I missed it but I think they said they used a business account, that doesn't automatically mean they were acting in the capacity of a business. I think everyone was very quick to assume that the OP was trading as a business but an earlier post suggests the OP is no longer trading at the time of the sale and the account was was simply used due to there being an existing number of reviews, but also that it couldn't be converted to a private account - seems a plausible explanation to me. 

If Parcel Monkey was used outside of eBay and the business account then again, it could be argued the OP was acting as a consumer. 

I wasn't acting as a business. I'm actually a builder. This was just the sale of a water boiler that happened to come out of a cafe and was given to me. I used it in my kitchen for a while because I like the retro look of it..the wife did not. Nothing to do with my business or the old ebay account.
I was really trying to work out if the T&cs allow them to damage it from dropping (not carrying, or in transit.) it and the consensus seems to be that if it isn't wrapped in ludicrous amounts of packaging they can treat it however they like?

HMRC successfully fine hundreds of people every year who claim they arent a business but are. 

Why did a cafe give you their boiler? 

Good on HMRC. And well done for pointing that out. So they should.
HMRC write to me more often than my family.
Have been all my self employed life.
Always a give and never a thank you.

Unlike most I belive I get my moneys worth from paying tax.

The cafe shut down pre lock down and was being taken over by somebody else as a new coffee shop so everything was being stripped out and skipped. These new business see no value in reclaiming.
The boiler was a retro water boiler/steamer for heating drinks, frothing coffee etc. 
I noticed it was all going aout and decided to be cheeky and ask if they were getting rid. "Please take it". Was the reply "and anything else you want.
We used it for a few years

I am not denying I am a business. I am a builder. A self employed builder. I also own and rent out properties and land.

I have a business. Pay taxes (up front) 

People just love to think they're catching you out with little underlying coments don't they?

I'm not sure what relevance any of this has to be honest?

born_again

Gehngus said:

People just love to think they're catching you out with little underlying coments don't they?

I'm not sure what relevance any of this has to be honest?

No one is trying to catch you out. Just trying to get to the facts, so that the correct advice is given.👍
There is a long running thread in Motoring section on the same subject of a car being sold under a business account. Yet the business is not a car dealer.

So in reality it makes it hard to reach a consensus on if it is a consumer or business deal. Everyone will have their own opinion. 🤷‍♀️

I guess the main thing is do you have a business acc with Parcel Monkey or the courier co?
What you might get, would depend on what level of extra protection you took out on the delivery & if what was sent was a excluded item.