EV parking bay not clearly marked

Enrico_Fermi

Coupon-mad said:

Can you get a readable picture of the Welsh and the English UKPC sign? And take a tape measure and photograph how high the bottom of the English sign is?

By putting one above the other I think they have marginalised - and made it impossible for themselves to form contracts with - English speakers because it looks like those terms are unreadable even if standing underneath.

Get a photo from the EV bay pointing at the UKPC signs and them one standing under it looking up.. I bet the £100 cannot be seen. And get one with the tape measure showing the height of the English sign. 

That evidence potentially wins at POPLA and you have over 30 days to use the POPLA Code. Not just 28 days: it's actually 28 plus 5.

So put POPLA off (assuming the Code isn't a month old) while you go get that evidence.

Thanks for the feedback. Just been there and it was quite busy but got some pictures.

• This is a zoomed in pic of the UKPC sign
• 
  
• Picture of someone standing next to the sign with the tape measure - it's higher than I thought and I should have taken a ladder with me instead of a foot stool which was useless
• 
  
• Here's the actual height - 2.9 m (9 1/2 foot)
• 
  
• Picture from the bay as looking at the sign (can't read it)
• 
  
• Picture standing directly underneath looking up ar it (too high to read)
• 
  

Coupon-mad

There you go, that'll be your evidence for POPLA stage, making it clear to the Assessor that the only possibly slightly readable sign is the lower sign but that's in Welsh and the one at the EV bay breaches the Code of Practice by using the banned words 'Penalty Charge Notice'. No sign has £100 in very large bold lettering. You can't make out that clause at all and cannot read the t&cs.

• Here's the actual height - 2.9 m (9 1/2 foot)

Presumably that's the height of the bottom rim if the English sign so the words about t&cs and £100 - which is tiny - are actually ten feet up.

1505grandad

Perhaps spelling it out as advised by @doubledotcom:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81639958/#Comment_81639958

"I honestly believe that POPLA has been scraping the barrel when trying to employ new assessors with the requisite level of basic education. Any POPLA appeals I assist with, I suggest they make sure it reads like a 'Janet & John' story that is understandable by a toddler."

Enrico_Fermi

Coupon-mad said:

There you go, that'll be your evidence for POPLA stage, making it clear to the Assessor that the only possibly slightly readable sign is the lower sign but that's in Welsh and the one at the EV bay breaches the Code of Practice by using the banned words 'Penalty Charge Notice'. No sign has £100 in very large bold lettering. You can't make out that clause at all and cannot read the t&cs.

• Here's the actual height - 2.9 m (9 1/2 foot)

Presumably that's the height of the bottom rim if the English sign so the words about t&cs and £100 - which is tiny - are actually ten feet up.

Thanks very much again. I'll post the outcome from POPLA when I receive it.

Coupon-mad

And no paying, regardless. Do this too:

FIGHTBACK ALERT:

Please do the government's Public Consultation. We need every poster to complete this vital survey before the deadline.

See this thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6617396/parking-code-of-practice-consultation-now-extended-closes-friday-26th-september/p1

We understand that you may need some pointers. It looks laborious, we get that. It doesn't matter; no knowledge is needed except re your own experiences so you can call out a scam industry and you'll protect millions of motorists and help change the law. 

I've written some guidance to help focus new posters on the issues. I've covered almost every question, providing ideas if you agree with our stance on things like DRFs, which we say must be banned.

Ordinary people like you are falling victim to this scam 15 million times per annum. Motorists need your voice added please.

CLOSES ON FRIDAY 26th SEPTEMBER.

Enrico_Fermi

UKPC gave a response to POPLA for my EV charging signage appeal:

"The vehicle was parked in a clearly marked electric vehicle charging bay, with signage next to the vehicle informing motorists that vehicles parked in these bays must be actively charging. We acknowledge that the bay itself does not have road markings; however, the signage at the bay clearly informs motorists that it is an electric vehicle charging point.

I do not dispute there is a generic sign about a penalty charge. There is no evidence this is a sign placed by the parking operator (it maybe be linked to a third party such as the owners of the site/retail park for example).

UKPC must maintain a consistent approach when issuing and upholding a charge. In this instance, this vehicle had been parked on site in direct breach of the terms and conditions of parking on site as stated on signage. The vehicle was parked in close proximity to UKPC signage, please see all photographic evidence to support this. UK Parking Control signage complies fully with section 3 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice and we reject the suggestion that it is vague or misleading. Entrance signage advises motorists that terms of parking apply, and that notices within the car park should be checked to identify the full terms and conditions. These notices are placed throughout the car park. It is ultimately the responsibility of the motorist to ensure they identify the terms of parking, and then decide whether to park their vehicle, or leave the site if they are unable to meet those terms.

The parking charges issued by UK Parking Control Limited are based on a contractual agreement between UKPC and the driver, as detailed on the signage displayed in the car park. The signage states the terms and conditions of parking and explains that a parking charge will be payable if the terms are not met by the driver. We ensure that signage is ample, clear and visible, wholly in line with the British Parking Association Code of Practice. It is settled law that a driver is deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions of parking by the act of parking and leaving a vehicle. Ultimately, it is fundamentally the responsibility of the motorist to identify the terms of parking when leaving their vehicle on private land. If they feel they are unable to adhere to the terms, they may leave the site before agreeing to those terms. There are sufficient signs advising drivers that parking while not using electric charging may result in a parking charge being issued. The driver of the vehicle was parked in an electric vehicle charging space whilst not using the electric charging facilities; consequently, the parking charge was issued correctly. "


My proposed reply to their comments is:

The main dispute of this appeal is that the sign (English language version) that is supposed to warn the motorist of an EV charging bay is unreadable, and this is illustrated in the photographs I sent with my appeal to POPLA and now by the photographs submitted by UKPC in their reply to you (see pages 14 and 15 of the response pdf sent by UKPC and also shown below). 

To reiterate, the sign is by far too high to be readable (unless the driver uses a ladder!).

Furthermore, this sign is the only sign that mentions EV charging parking restrictions and none of the other signs that UKPC highlight in the parking ground (I checked today!) make no mention of EV charging and so they are irrelevant to this appeal. All the other signs focus on the 3 hours parking limit which is not why the PCN was given. Incidentally, as mentioned in my UKPC appeal, the driver was parked in the EV charging bay for less than 5 min before he/she was informed by a passer-by that it was an EV charging bay, where the driver then immediately moved the car to another parking bay.

Some further comments on UKPC's reply letter are:

 1.     UKPLC claim that “The vehicle was parked in a clearly marked electric vehicle charging bay, with signage next to the vehicle” – this is disputed as no signage points to any bays to indicate this.

2.     UKPC’s comment  below is quite blasé and unprofessional – the sign still breaches the Code of Practice by using the banned words ‘Penalty Charge Notice’.

“I do not dispute there is a generic sign about a penalty charge. There is no evidence this is a sign placed by the parking operator (it maybe be linked to a third party such as the owners of the site/retail park for example).”

Not sure if I should include the following 'NB' as it is not directly related to the appeal but illustrates how poorly maintained the signs are in the parking area:

NB From my walk around the car park today I noticed that the signs are very poorly maintained and generally are not easy to read - see below


Any comments are welcomed

Enrico_Fermi

Coupon-mad said:

And no paying, regardless. Do this too:

FIGHTBACK ALERT:

Please do the government's Public Consultation. We need every poster to complete this vital survey before the deadline.

See this thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6617396/parking-code-of-practice-consultation-now-extended-closes-friday-26th-september/p1

We understand that you may need some pointers. It looks laborious, we get that. It doesn't matter; no knowledge is needed except re your own experiences so you can call out a scam industry and you'll protect millions of motorists and help change the law. 

I've written some guidance to help focus new posters on the issues. I've covered almost every question, providing ideas if you agree with our stance on things like DRFs, which we say must be banned.

Ordinary people like you are falling victim to this scam 15 million times per annum. Motorists need your voice added please.

CLOSES ON FRIDAY 26th SEPTEMBER.

Thanks, I'll get this done before Friday

Coupon-mad

Glad you will fit it in. The more the better.

Re the POPLA comments, you are not allowed to add new evidence. Only comment on theirs.

Enrico_Fermi

Coupon-mad said:

Glad you will fit it in. The more the better.

Re the POPLA comments, you are not allowed to add new evidence. Only comment on theirs.

Thanks, yes makes sense now that you've stated it about the POPLA comments.
I know quite a few people angered by the PCN they received and will encourage them to complete the consultation.