Half hourly data settlement

Scot_39

stripling said:

@Scot_39To be fair they have already swapped half hour from opt in to opt out on switching - meters or suppliers iirc - I'd have to find the change again - it wasn't exactly published widely. 

I think this is over. I asked about it and was told it's a done deal you can't opt out. Ofgem's lack of information is super crap.  In fact their lack of information overall for consumers is dire. 

Well thats another classic failure by Ofgem if true - giving even more ammunition to those opposed to smart meters.

Ildhund

A smart meter records how much electricity has been used in each half-hour. Users with the required permissions can retrieve these records from the meter, but they can't share them with anyone else without extra permissions. The supplier can use them to bill you by agreeing a price for each half hour. They can also use them to determine how much to pay the generator (the mechanism known as settlement) for the electricity passing through your meter, again by agreeing a price for each half hour. Sharing your data between supplier and generator requires you to grant another set of permissions. This may now be the default arrangement with some suppliers, although I'd expect it to be possible to revoke these permissions. 

What I have difficulty understanding is the objection to using half-hourly data for settlement. Anything to improve on the current method of estimates and guesses can only be of benefit to all concerned.  

Qyburn

Ildhund said:

They can also use them to determine how much to pay the generator (the mechanism known as settlement) for the electricity passing through your meter, again by agreeing a price for each half hour. Sharing your data between supplier and generator requires you to grant another set of permissions. 

I can't see why they need to share data from each individual meter. Surely all that's needed is the total from all of their customers in each hlf hour.

Scot_39

Ildhund said:

A smart meter records how much electricity has been used in each half-hour. Users with the required permissions can retrieve these records from the meter, but they can't share them with anyone else without extra permissions. The supplier can use them to bill you by agreeing a price for each half hour. They can also use them to determine how much to pay the generator (the mechanism known as settlement) for the electricity passing through your meter, again by agreeing a price for each half hour. Sharing your data between supplier and generator requires you to grant another set of permissions. This may now be the default arrangement with some suppliers, although I'd expect it to be possible to revoke these permissions. 

What I have difficulty understanding is the objection to using half-hourly data for settlement. Anything to improve on the current method of estimates and guesses can only be of benefit to all concerned.  

In a  above post I paraphrased a section of the industry description for HHS.

I hope provided I link theybwill not object to me pasting it here, so from 

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/publications/euk-explains-market-wide-half-hourly-settlement/

• Innovative products and services to suit all customers. These will enable suppliers to change when and how customers use energy and will play a key role in customers receiving the benefits of MHHS and reaching net zero.

The bold mynhighlighting not theirs.

Sounds pretty much like a move to tou at best, surge pricing at worst  - how else are they going to change the when - and note is says for everyone (the all).

And the implication for those who dont want tou -  assuming their will be exclusions to the "ALL", there will be no customer benefit - the "KEY" bit.

And as we all know there is a total pool of costs and a total pool of income from customers to pay those costs.  So if some do benefit - their is a chance others will end up paying more.  You actually really have to believe the industry and Ofgem this will lower total costs to avoid that. You can trust them if you want. 

Given the cost of SoLR and their many other failures - I choose not to.

When suppliers are paying for your energy in 1/2 hourly chunks - it makes logical sense for them to seek to bill you at those 1/2 hourly rates.

And I am on  a daily TOU tariff - a register not 1/2 hourly - "fixed" not dynamic priced though - tou tariff.  Have been for decades in fact even before Smart meters existed.

So know you dont actually need half hourly data to implement them or bill them.

A tariff like Octopus Cosy TOU could easily be implemented via register billing, just like my e10 with three offpeak periods is.  There's nothing restricting register billing to only 2 rates per day in the snets specifications.

And note HHS is being driven by the industry - its not Ofgem led - its not even remotely consumer led.

DAPF existed - because after months of consultation - the govt at the time realised their were objections to the very presence of 1/2 hourly data logging.  As in some minds  it only has one purpose - surge / live or TOU demand based pricing.


EOn Next emails to those who havent yet given permission say they are defaulting to daily settlement iirc if you don't give half hourly settlement permission.

I was almost tempted to look to see if can still opt out of daily, to try to stop Ofgem's erosion of my legal rights to control commercial access to and use of my data under GDPR.  Dapf was only strictly billing though.  So those rights arguably already sold to industry before EU GDPR became law.

WiserMiser

It's a safe bet that any such changes made by Ofgem / E.On's unholy alliance won't benefit the consumer.  Here comes surge pricing... 🙁

Ildhund

Qyburn said:
I can't see why they need to share data from each individual meter. Surely all that's needed is the total from all of their customers in each hlf hour.

As far as I can tell, that's just what happens. OVO say that "The data used for settlement is combined and anonymised to ensure individual customer privacy." I haven't checked that this is the normal arrangement, but I can't see other suppliers doing it any other way. 

mmmmikey

Ildhund said:

Qyburn said:
I can't see why they need to share data from each individual meter. Surely all that's needed is the total from all of their customers in each hlf hour.

As far as I can tell, that's just what happens. OVO say that "The data used for settlement is combined and anonymised to ensure individual customer privacy." I haven't checked that this is the normal arrangement, but I can't see other suppliers doing it any other way. 

I agree - this makes no practical difference to anyone, it just improves the energy industry charging processes which is something we all benefit from sooner or later. So good news for everyone - practical moneysavers will see this as a positive move forward towards optimising supply arrangements and those who like to have something to complain about get some material for a good old whinge. Winners all round!

Ildhund

Scot_39 said:

I have difficulty understanding [...] the objection to using half-hourly data for settlement. 

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/publications/euk-explains-market-wide-half-hourly-settlement/

• Innovative products and services to suit all customers. These will enable suppliers to change when and how customers use energy ... 

There may be differences between suppliers, but MHHS has nothing to do with enabling them to 'change when and how customers use energy.' I'd go so far as to say that the article you quoted is wrong on this score. There are as far as I can tell two quite separate issues here.

• The supplier can retrieve half-hourly usage data given the customer's permission. These data can then be used for billing in all its forms, including smart ToU pricing arrangements;
• The supplier can given specific permission use customers' combined and anonymized half-hourly usage data for settlement with generators.  

My supplier - OVO - shows a page where I can opt to permit the use of half-hourly data for one, both or neither of 'for billing' and 'for settlement':
  
  


 

Scot_39

So why do they explicitly say so ?

I've learned to take statements like that literally.  After years of contract work including some claims going to litigation.

Re ovo - I'll maybe check EOns options later.

Ildhund

@Scot_39 I had another look at the document you quoted from: Energy-UK-Explains-Marketwide-Half-Hourly-Settlement.pdf. It has all the hallmarks of text written by a content author with appropriate language skills but only a tenuous grasp of the subject matter. For example, the claim that MHHS "will enable new offerings such as time-of-use tariffs" is just not true. Some ToU tariffs depend on the supplier being able to access the customer's half-hourly usage data, but whether the data are also used for settlement is irrelevant to customer billing.

This isn't the first time I've come across documentation that ought to be authoritative (as in this case, published by the industry's trade association) which is in fact inaccurate and misleading.