Planning permission - change of use - build - divide

hellototheworld

Hi everyone.
Applying for change of use, office to residential, small plot, South East.
Paid for pre-planning advice, to confirm if change will be accepted or not, sizes, no of rooms, etc
All good.

The only bad news, the council needs a certain amount of garden space, more beds, more space.
Building footprint must be reduced to cater for the garden space.
OK, fine, can do that, but not too much.

1 bed, you must x space of outdoor space - otherwise will reject planning
If 2bed, must have more amount of outdoor space.
If 3bed, more space
etc
(BTW, the amount of space asked for is big, most homes are no where near the amount of space - But ok, I get why and the reasons).

I know for a fact a 3 bed planning will be rejected. The amount of outdoor space needed is just too much - no chance. 
So my plan is to go for permission of a 2bed, get confirmation, build it, get it signed off.
After sign off, split one of the large beds into 2, making a 3 bed, as the split doesn't involve any permission or regs, its just internal. It'll just be a dividing batten-plasterboard wall.

>>

thoughts?

Section62

hellototheworld said:

Hi everyone.
Applying for change of use, office to residential, small plot, South East.
Paid for pre-planning advice, to confirm if change will be accepted or not, sizes, no of rooms, etc
All good.

The only bad news, the council needs a certain amount of garden space, more beds, more space.
Building footprint must be reduced to cater for the garden space.
OK, fine, can do that, but not too much.

1 bed, you must x space of outdoor space - otherwise will reject planning
If 2bed, must have more amount of outdoor space.
If 3bed, more space
etc
(BTW, the amount of space asked for is big, most homes are no where near the amount of space - But ok, I get why and the reasons).

I know for a fact a 3 bed planning will be rejected. The amount of outdoor space needed is just too much - no chance. 
So my plan is to go for permission of a 2bed, get confirmation, build it, get it signed off.
After sign off, split one of the large beds into 2, making a 3 bed, as the split doesn't involve any permission or regs, its just internal. It'll just be a dividing batten-plasterboard wall.

>>

thoughts?

Likely to be a breach of planning consent, and possibly subject to enforcement action if the council get upset.

The consent you get will probably include a condition requiring the development to be implemented in accordance with the plans.  Changing the plans in a material manner means you haven't implemented the development as consented.  Likewise, pretenting one of the bedrooms is actually going to be a lounge/office/TV room etc is unlikely to get past the planners without some form of restriction.

Although with BC there is a 'sign off', there is no equivalent 'end' to planning consent.  If it were that easy to get planning consent, build it, then adapt to something else, then everyone would do it.  Compliance with planning requirements is ongoing.

Bear in mind that alterations which are 'just internal' doesn't mean planning don't have an involvement... one of the planning myths is that you only need consent if you change the outside.  Increasing the number of bedrooms is an example of where it can matter.

Likewise, 'regs' apply to all building work, even if internal.  Converting one room into two won't necessarily require explicit BR approval, but the work itself has to comply with the regs - for example in terms of ventilation, means of escape etc.

hellototheworld

Section62 said:

hellototheworld said:

Hi everyone.
Applying for change of use, office to residential, small plot, South East.
Paid for pre-planning advice, to confirm if change will be accepted or not, sizes, no of rooms, etc
All good.

The only bad news, the council needs a certain amount of garden space, more beds, more space.
Building footprint must be reduced to cater for the garden space.
OK, fine, can do that, but not too much.

1 bed, you must x space of outdoor space - otherwise will reject planning
If 2bed, must have more amount of outdoor space.
If 3bed, more space
etc
(BTW, the amount of space asked for is big, most homes are no where near the amount of space - But ok, I get why and the reasons).

I know for a fact a 3 bed planning will be rejected. The amount of outdoor space needed is just too much - no chance. 
So my plan is to go for permission of a 2bed, get confirmation, build it, get it signed off.
After sign off, split one of the large beds into 2, making a 3 bed, as the split doesn't involve any permission or regs, its just internal. It'll just be a dividing batten-plasterboard wall.

>>

thoughts?

Likely to be a breach of planning consent, and possibly subject to enforcement action if the council get upset.

The consent you get will probably include a condition requiring the development to be implemented in accordance with the plans.  Changing the plans in a material manner means you haven't implemented the development as consented.  Likewise, pretenting one of the bedrooms is actually going to be a lounge/office/TV room etc is unlikely to get past the planners without some form of restriction.

Although with BC there is a 'sign off', there is no equivalent 'end' to planning consent.  If it were that easy to get planning consent, build it, then adapt to something else, then everyone would do it.  Compliance with planning requirements is ongoing.

Bear in mind that alterations which are 'just internal' doesn't mean planning don't have an involvement... one of the planning myths is that you only need consent if you change the outside.  Increasing the number of bedrooms is an example of where it can matter.

Likewise, 'regs' apply to all building work, even if internal.  Converting one room into two won't necessarily require explicit BR approval, but the work itself has to comply with the regs - for example in terms of ventilation, means of escape etc.

Totally get you, thanks for your input. Sure, have to comply with regs if splitting a room. My point was council isn't involved in process of splitting a room. 

I get your meaning. council will view it negatively and may act. I thought once the build was complete, the home owner has the right to do whatever they want in terms of splitting rooms so long as the regs are followed (ventilation, light, sqm, etc) - just as if the house was sold the new owner has the right to split a room into 2. 

WIAWSNB

Realistically, if you were to do this, you'd almost certainly 'get away' with it, but it would remain a potentially-actionable breach for as long as the divider is in place. (Or is it 10 years now?)
And, if you do this, you should, for example, insure your property as a 3-bed.
The house would remain a '2-bed' in most other respects, say, for example, when you come to sell.
Such breaches need declaring in the TA6. But your call whether to advertise it as a '3', or '2/3', or '2 currently laid out as 3', or whatever, whilst explaining the situation clearly to all potential buyers, and they can make their own judgement before going any further. I expect it'll be 'valued' somewhere between the two - a 'more desirable two-bed'. Likey needing an indemnity policy if the actionable period has not yet been exceeded.
What's your longer-term plan? To use it as your own family three-bed for a good number of years? I trust not to try and quickly sell on as a 3-bed...
Would a '3' be in a higher CT bracket? That could possibly be a more costly issue if they find out.
Other than that, BC's main actionable concerns tend to be safety-related; not built correctly, fire egress, stuff like that, or overcrowding, but none of that should apply here? Not a 'room divider'.
There are countless such alterations around, many involving far more serious 'loft conversions' as a declared additional bedroom. Regular threads on here from potential buyers who wonder how it should be priced, whether it's safe, etc. Bottom line - they all ultimately sell.
Have you included a 'study'? A separate 'dining room'?
We have a 3-bed, but with a converted attached garage and a garden room. Both of these rooms have been used as bedrooms for medium periods - approaching 4 years in total - and I have pics of them used as such, frankly nicer bedrooms than the 'real' ones. When we come to sell, it'll likely be '3/5 reception, 3/5 bedroom - flexible layout' or similar. 

The above is not a suggestion or advice, just what I understand is the most likely scenario.

WIAWSNB

hellototheworld said:

Section62 said:

hellototheworld said:

Hi everyone.
Applying for change of use, office to residential, small plot, South East.
Paid for pre-planning advice, to confirm if change will be accepted or not, sizes, no of rooms, etc
All good.

The only bad news, the council needs a certain amount of garden space, more beds, more space.
Building footprint must be reduced to cater for the garden space.
OK, fine, can do that, but not too much.

1 bed, you must x space of outdoor space - otherwise will reject planning
If 2bed, must have more amount of outdoor space.
If 3bed, more space
etc
(BTW, the amount of space asked for is big, most homes are no where near the amount of space - But ok, I get why and the reasons).

I know for a fact a 3 bed planning will be rejected. The amount of outdoor space needed is just too much - no chance. 
So my plan is to go for permission of a 2bed, get confirmation, build it, get it signed off.
After sign off, split one of the large beds into 2, making a 3 bed, as the split doesn't involve any permission or regs, its just internal. It'll just be a dividing batten-plasterboard wall.

>>

thoughts?

Likely to be a breach of planning consent, and possibly subject to enforcement action if the council get upset.

The consent you get will probably include a condition requiring the development to be implemented in accordance with the plans.  Changing the plans in a material manner means you haven't implemented the development as consented.  Likewise, pretenting one of the bedrooms is actually going to be a lounge/office/TV room etc is unlikely to get past the planners without some form of restriction.

Although with BC there is a 'sign off', there is no equivalent 'end' to planning consent.  If it were that easy to get planning consent, build it, then adapt to something else, then everyone would do it.  Compliance with planning requirements is ongoing.

Bear in mind that alterations which are 'just internal' doesn't mean planning don't have an involvement... one of the planning myths is that you only need consent if you change the outside.  Increasing the number of bedrooms is an example of where it can matter.

Likewise, 'regs' apply to all building work, even if internal.  Converting one room into two won't necessarily require explicit BR approval, but the work itself has to comply with the regs - for example in terms of ventilation, means of escape etc.

Totally get you, thanks for your input. Sure, have to comply with regs if splitting a room. My point was council isn't involved in process of splitting a room. 

I get your meaning. council will view it negatively and may act. I thought once the build was complete, the home owner has the right to do whatever they want in terms of splitting rooms so long as the regs are followed (ventilation, light, sqm, etc) - just as if the house was sold the new owner has the right to split a room into 2. 

AfaIu, not the case. If you were, for example, to shift the location of a bathroom or kitchen, BC should, I understand, be involved. How many folk actually bother, I have no idea...
'Adding' a bedroom is potentially more significant a move, but also much simpler, and undoable.

WIAWSNB

Bro has just opened a single-sized bedroom into the adjoining sitting room, with large pocket doors. 
It is, officially, a two-bed flat, but this gives great flexibility, and the sitting room is far nicer when that bedroom is not required.

Section62

hellototheworld said:

...
I get your meaning. council will view it negatively and may act. I thought once the build was complete, the home owner has the right to do whatever they want in terms of splitting rooms so long as the regs are followed (ventilation, light, sqm, etc) - just as if the house was sold the new owner has the right to split a room into 2. 

Planning consent goes with the property, not the owner.  So a new owner would have the same (restricted) rights as the previous owner/developer.

Bear in mind your situation differs from the average 'get away with it' type cases in that this is a new development and you've been told via the pre-application advice process what probably would and wouldn't be acceptable.  If you apply for planning consent for a 2-bed dwelling knowing that you intend to build a 3-bed one then you could potentially open yourself to prosecution for fraud, in addition (or in place of) any other planning enforcement action.

One option it might be worth asking the planners about is whether they would accept a design where part of the first floor is cantilevered out over the garden - this could give you more first-floor area, but retain outdoor space at ground level.  It would cost more per sqm, and would depend whether the council wanted 'green' garden space, or just 'outdoor' space.

WIAWSNB

I don't think any 'building' is involved here, just a change of use of what's already there?

hellototheworld

@WIAWSNB thankyou
I'll check on CT brackets, probably sell a few years down the line. Will propose office room/utility room/dining room options which future buyers may see as a 3rd room instead - good idea. 

@Section62 thankyou
Got all your points. Thankyou. Cantilever idea, already proposed. You are right about the new dev, I've been told no, computer says no. 

The rejection of a 3bed over a 2bed is not for lack of floor space, there's plenty of it, instead 3bed needing much more garden/outdoor space. 

Out of curiosity. If its sold in 5 years time, what council regulation/law prevents the future buyer from splitting one of the rooms into 2? Is it a clause in the planning permission or sign off "In the next 10 years, no rooms should be added or no changes should be made to layout whatsoever"

>>

Last curiosity. 
1 goal of splitting is to create a 3bed rental. 
Keep it as such for the duration of rental x 10 years at least. 
On selling, the wall split could be removed

>>

Albermarle

Interesting about the garden space requirement, when it is often commented that new build housing developments have poky gardens !

hellototheworld

Albermarle said:

Interesting about the garden space requirement, when it is often commented that new build housing developments have poky gardens !

Exactly !