Octopus Final bill for £2K cannot be right

Pat38493

I moved out of a property in June and received a closing bill from Octopus in July which seemed correct.  I keep a spreadsheet of bills and usage etc and so I was tracking roughly what the closing amounts should be.

Yesterday I received a demand for £1902 from Octopus, stating that the smart meter reading on 8th June was 80525.2 and the customer reading on 16th June was 87400.  This could not be right because I reckon I would have had to exceed the main fuse capacity to use that much in a week (and in fact I moved out half way through that week so even worse).

Edit: Just to clarify, the 87400 was a customer reading by me and I have the photo so it's what was actually showing on the meter at the time.

Looking into this a bit more and I didn't even notice this at the time - I have a photo fo the meter from July 2023 when I switched to Octopus where the reading was 67337.  However in the first Octopus bill it says "Opening reading 63370.8" - this must be a smart meter reading because my meter display does not have decimal places.

So Octopus "smart meter reading" has been wrong since I joined them but I didn't notice at the time because I immediately joined a smart tariff - I have been on smart tariffs for most of the time, and when you are on a smart tariff Octopus does not quote the smart meter reading on your bill as they use the 30 minute slots for billing.

I have raised a query with Octopus but to be honest I'm confused because they've charged me for about 19700KWH of energy since I joined, but the physical meter reading has changed by 20063 (maybe that's within expected error?).

However according to Octopus smart meter readings quoted on the first and last bill, the meter read changed by 17154 since I joined so by their own reckoning they have actually overcharged me, albeit that they are using numbers completely different to what is physically showing on the meter!

Any energy experts who could throw out a theory here?  I'm wondering if they are only reading one register on the meter and some usage went to another or suchlike?

MattMattMattUK

Pat38493 said:

I moved out of a property in June and received a closing bill from Octopus in July which seemed correct.  I keep a spreadsheet of bills and usage etc and so I was tracking roughly what the closing amounts should be.

Yesterday I received a demand for £1902 from Octopus, stating that the smart meter reading on 8th June was 80525.2 and the customer reading on 16th June was 87400.  This could not be right because I reckon I would have had to exceed the main fuse capacity to use that much in a week (and in fact I moved out half way through that week so even worse).

Edit: Just to clarify, the 87400 was a customer reading by me and I have the photo so it's what was actually showing on the meter at the time.

Looking into this a bit more and I didn't even notice this at the time - I have a photo fo the meter from July 2023 when I switched to Octopus where the reading was 67337.  However in the first Octopus bill it says "Opening reading 63370.8" - this must be a smart meter reading because my meter display does not have decimal places.

So Octopus "smart meter reading" has been wrong since I joined them but I didn't notice at the time because I immediately joined a smart tariff - I have been on smart tariffs for most of the time, and when you are on a smart tariff Octopus does not quote the smart meter reading on your bill as they use the 30 minute slots for billing.

I have raised a query with Octopus but to be honest I'm confused because they've charged me for about 19700KWH of energy since I joined, but the physical meter reading has changed by 20063 (maybe that's within expected error?).

However according to Octopus smart meter readings quoted on the first and last bill, the meter read changed by 17154 since I joined so by their own reckoning they have actually overcharged me, albeit that they are using numbers completely different to what is physically showing on the meter!

Any energy experts who could throw out a theory here?  I'm wondering if they are only reading one register on the meter and some usage went to another or suchlike?

What doe the closing reading from your pre-Octopus supplier say?
Do you have a picture of the meter from the day you moved out?

Pat38493

MattMattMattUK said:

Pat38493 said:

I moved out of a property in June and received a closing bill from Octopus in July which seemed correct.  I keep a spreadsheet of bills and usage etc and so I was tracking roughly what the closing amounts should be.

Yesterday I received a demand for £1902 from Octopus, stating that the smart meter reading on 8th June was 80525.2 and the customer reading on 16th June was 87400.  This could not be right because I reckon I would have had to exceed the main fuse capacity to use that much in a week (and in fact I moved out half way through that week so even worse).

Edit: Just to clarify, the 87400 was a customer reading by me and I have the photo so it's what was actually showing on the meter at the time.

Looking into this a bit more and I didn't even notice this at the time - I have a photo fo the meter from July 2023 when I switched to Octopus where the reading was 67337.  However in the first Octopus bill it says "Opening reading 63370.8" - this must be a smart meter reading because my meter display does not have decimal places.

So Octopus "smart meter reading" has been wrong since I joined them but I didn't notice at the time because I immediately joined a smart tariff - I have been on smart tariffs for most of the time, and when you are on a smart tariff Octopus does not quote the smart meter reading on your bill as they use the 30 minute slots for billing.

I have raised a query with Octopus but to be honest I'm confused because they've charged me for about 19700KWH of energy since I joined, but the physical meter reading has changed by 20063 (maybe that's within expected error?).

However according to Octopus smart meter readings quoted on the first and last bill, the meter read changed by 17154 since I joined so by their own reckoning they have actually overcharged me, albeit that they are using numbers completely different to what is physically showing on the meter!

Any energy experts who could throw out a theory here?  I'm wondering if they are only reading one register on the meter and some usage went to another or suchlike?

What doe the closing reading from your pre-Octopus supplier say?
Do you have a picture of the meter from the day you moved out?

Good question.
Final British Gas reading says 63347 and 3957.  British Gas reported 2 separate numbers for their EV tariff and if I add them together it comes to 67304 which is quite close to my photo of 67337.  So this lends weight to the idea that Octopus is working on one register and my physical meter read includes both?

And yes I have a picture of the meter reading from the day I moved out - I aslo have pictures form when we joined Octopus, and a couple of other pictures from random points in between.

MWT

Sounds like you may have given a reading using the total import figure on the meter but Octopus were using the reading from a single register (typically Reg01 but not always).

Check the readings on all registers now and see what the difference is between total import and those readings.

Pat38493

MWT said:

Sounds like you may have given a reading using the total import figure on the meter but Octopus were using the reading from a single register (typically Reg01 but not always).

Check the readings on all registers now and see what the difference is between total import and those readings.

I can't as I have moved out of the property in mid June.  I would guess that if Octopus only uses Reg01 for everything, the other one would not have changed in the meantime - they just need to look at their own readings for Reg1?

Scot_39

Sounds like the meter was multirate for tge old BG EV tariff and you are having problems of total vs rate 1 and rate 2 registers.

A problem that has occurred for a few others but not many.  And one user was told the only way to guarantee avoiding a repeat was to have his relatively new smart multirate meter replaced with one configured single rate from day 1.  Which was actually done despite cost.

Now when you went TOU on a smart 1/2 hourly at Octopus the registers aren't directly used but they are according to some posts still taken and used for sanity checks and bill reviews etc like annualised DD calcs. 

And so it would seem final bills in this case.

The worry here is that Octopus have been assuming only 1 register and only 1 active and  you've been giving the total.

I've read when go tou tge meter doesn't get sent any real rate, but is sent an update, posdibly with some notional numbers, which I had assumed might have reset any old multirate tariff timing so total and main register tracked, but its possible they didn't here.

And there was also sonething strange about how BG set that EV tariffs split - as some reported varied with GMT and they and other users said didn't on their meter if the 00 midnight to 5am variant.

Can anyone actually with Octopus who switched from old multirate to TOU recollect what they actually did in that situation, and how their old off peak registers behaved undef new tariff ?

But the fact the smart offset, and I am guessing here without data - the 2nd register offset has potentially grown from c3957 to 87400-80525 = 6875, so by just over 2900kWh  assuming the meter serial numbers etc match - implies that register 2 say was still active and accumulating use - possible on the old iirc 12-5am BG EV times if tgat variant.

But that would put your total use at 87400-67337 = 20063 (or higher if used old BG).
EDIT 
Their smart 80525.X-63370.X = c17155 kWh,  missing g tge presumed c2900 in 2nd register change.

And so there now attempting to bill you tge full 2nd register on that revised final vs the actual real usage change from day 1.

The clue though has definitely been there since day 1

"Looking into this a bit more and I didn't even notice this at the time - I have a photo fo the meter from July 2023 when I switched to Octopus where the reading was 67337.  However in the first Octopus bill it says "Opening reading 63370.8" - this must be a smart meter reading because my meter display does not have decimal places."

That 63370 being close to thd old BG 63347.

And you were clearly aware from BG bills the meter was twin rate.

But hindsight marvellous.

What shows on Octopus portal as readings - actual register readings - if anything for that meter at old address if still visible.

Did you actually - i hope you did - record both registers in your photos or just the totals - i fear from the bold above you only took totals ?

[On my meter thats a different reading sequence triggered by different keypad buttons, but others just cycle through the registers on one button and again others need digging through menus to select tge multirate option.]

Do they actually get all daily registers - so all rates and total when they poll would be an interesting question to ask them if you didn't.

If tge meter still present, wonder if Octopus can legally access tge meter if no longer their supply ?

Edit 2
Or at a push - how well do you know tge new owners or landlord to take a full set now, or even an app for old data.  1 month of error beats c7000kWh billing errors.

Pat38493

Scot_39 said:

Sounds like the meter was multirate for tge old BG EV tariff and you are having problems of total vs rate 1 and rate 2 registers.

A problem that has occurred for a few others but not many.  And one user was told the only way to guarantee avoiding a repeat was to have his relatively new smart multirate meter replaced with one configured single rate from day 1.  Which was actually done despite cost.

Now when you went TOU on a smart 1/2 hourly at Octopus the registers aren't directly used but they are according to some posts still taken and used for sanity checks and bill reviews etc like annualised DD calcs. 

And so it would seem final bills in this case.

The worry here is that Octopus have been assuming only 1 register and only 1 active and  you've been giving the total.

I've read when go tou tge meter doesn't get sent any real rate, but is sent an update, posdibly with some notional numbers, which I had assumed might have reset any old multirate tariff timing so total and main register tracked, but its possible they didn't here.

And there was also sonething strange about how BG set that EV tariffs split - as some reported varied with GMT and they and other users said didn't on their meter if the 00 midnight to 5am variant.

Can anyone actually with Octopus who switched from old multirate to TOU recollect what they actually did in that situation, and how their old off peak registers behaved undef new tariff ?

But the fact the smart offset, and I am guessing here without data - the 2nd register offset has potentially grown from c3957 to 87400-80525 = 6875, so by just over 2900kWh  assuming the meter serial numbers etc match - implies that register 2 say was still active and accumulating use - possible on the old iirc 12-5am BG EV times if tgat variant.

But that would put your total use at 87400-67337 = 20063 (or higher if used old BG).

And so there now attempting to bill you tge full 2nd register on that revised final vs the actual real usage change from day 1.

The clue though has definitely been there since dayc1

"Looking into this a bit more and I didn't even notice this at the time - I have a photo fo the meter from July 2023 when I switched to Octopus where the reading was 67337.  However in the first Octopus bill it says "Opening reading 63370.8" - this must be a smart meter reading because my meter display does not have decimal places."

That 63370 being close to thd old BG 63347.

And you were clearly aware from BG bills the meter was twin rate.

But hindsight marvellous.

What shows on Octopus portal as readings - actual register readings - if anything for that meter at old address if still visible.

Did you actually - i hope you did - record both registers in your photos or just the totals ?

[On my meter thats a different reading sequence triggered by different keypad buttons, but others just cycle through the registers on one button and again others need digging through menus to select tge multirate option.]

Do they actually get all daily registers - so all rates and total when they poll would be an interesting question to ask them if you didn't.

No I don't have photos of both registers - I am not even sure if I can see that on the meter but it's too late now anyway - I just took a photo of the meter reading as requested by Octopus.  I have photos of the total import readings from the start and end of when I was using them at the property, so if all else fails I would guess that is the "master record" of total usage?

Your calculation of 20063 corresponds with my calculation of the physical differences in total import readings, and it's also pretty close to the total KWh that they have charged me since July 2023 - they charged me for 19702 based on the half hourly readings (this is from a manually typed spreadsheet over the last 2 years so an error like that might be a typo here or there).

"But the fact the smart offset, and I am guessing here without data - the 2nd register offset has potentially grown from c3957 to 87400-80525 = 6875, so by just over 2900kWh  assuming the meter serial numbers etc match - implies that register 2 say was still active and accumulating use - possible on the old iirc 12-5am BG EV times if tgat variant."

That would sort of explain what is happening.  Octopus are now billing me as if the peak register has suddenly gone up by 7000+ KWh.  This would also explain why the difference between their original opening reading and mine, and their ending reading and mine, has increased.

The other factor on my side is that their own smart meter reading from 8th June, is 6899KWh less than the total import reading from 16th June - it's not plausible that this much power was used in 8 days.

What I can say is that based on the smart meter 30 minute readings, I am pretty comfortable that I have been charged correctly, or very close to correctly, prior to this - I am a bit of an energy nerd and I have spreadsheets of readings from IHD and from Octopus apps going back to the start.  The energy they charged me is consistent with what I would expect each month given my usage, charging, load shifting etc.  I would definitely have noticed if they were under charging me by £2K in 2 years.

This is because they have been using the 30 minutes slots download to bill me the whole time, so it wouldn't have mattered which registers things were on.

However - the thing that's making it worse is that the smart meter at the old house stopped reporting data. Octopus lost contact with the meter some time 9th June which (coincidentally or not) was the same day that I told them I had sold the house and gave them my moving out date.  I reported to Octopus on 11th June that the smart meter was not working as I coud no longer see usage.  This corresponds with their smart meter register read dated 8th June even though my move out date was 16th June, so obviously they couldn't get a reading after that and decided to go with my customer read which was total import.

When I reported this whole issue to Octopus this morning, their reply so far is that it looks like I am reporting a different register to the one they are using and they need to try to contact the new owner of the house "to get the smart meter working".  From past experience this will take months if at all.

Meantime - I want to stop them from charging me £1900 that I don't owe.  They had already sent me a bill that was marked "this is your final bill" in July, and collected the payment in early August, so I would have been within my rights to cancel the direct debit then - therefore I am minded to cancel the direct debit for the old property so they can't take £1900 and then investigate the matter for months?  When I told them to put the invoice on hold as I was disputing it, they didn't really reply other than saying "we are investigating".

The direct debit for the new property is also with Octopus but it's against a different bank account so it won't be affected.

Scot_39

Its a bit awkward - as it is your reading that drove the bill - and they had not been aware of the fault.

They are however aware by the sounds of it of the problem with mismatched tracking and single register assumptions - which is as much their fault as yours for providing what you thought was the single reading required on a non conventional multi-register based deal.

You are lucky that you appear to have kept good records - and can show - as you probably have given in past those total register readings - many would have long since deleted 2 yr old info like that.

(I keep mine and my old parents accounts around supplier/meter changes for 6 yrs - the statuatory limit in Eng for CCJ proceedings - so yes I too am a bit overly anal)

You don't want to pay a false bill - and importantly you don't want them pursuing it as a debt either internally or externally - or putting non payment markers on your credit file.

So if they didn't already agree when you spoke to them earlier - I'd ask in writing so as it's traceable - for the final bill to be withdrawn / frozen / suspended pending their investigation of the charges - referring to today's conversation - as part of a formal complaint about the bill and the suspect basis for it.

Pat38493

Scot_39 said:

Its a bit awkward - as it is your reading that drove the bill - and they had not been aware of the fault.

They are however aware by the sounds of it of the problem with mismatched tracking and single register assumptions - which is as much their fault as yours.

You are lucky that you appear to have kept good records - and can show - as you probably have given in past those total register readings - many would have long since deleted 2 yr old info like that.

(I keep mine and my old parents accounts around supplier/meter changes for 6 yrs - the statuatory limit in Eng for CCJ proceedings)

You don't want to pay a false bill - and you don't want them pursuing it as a debt either internally or externally - or putting non payment markers on your credit file.

So if they didn't already agree when you spoke to them earlier - I'd ask in writing so as it's traceable - for the final bill to be withdrawn pending their investigation of the charges - referring to today's conversation - as part of a formal complaint about the bill and the suspect basis for it.

In the meantime, Octopus have come back to me this afternoon and produced another final bill which leaves me £13 in credit using an estimated reading for the date I moved out.

I asked them to confirm that this is really the final bill, as I have now received 3 bills that said "this is your final bill" - they are saying yes that's it.  Hopefully.  I have to admit that I suspect I have not been billed for any usage that accrued on the off peak register for the time after the smart meter stopped working, but that couldn't be more than a few pounds.  (if the off peak register is still accruing readings per your theory earlier).

WBCPB

I have just checked my 3 registers and Octopus seem to be using both RO1 + RO2 since i rejoined in April this year, where as previously ALL usage was on RO1, so this will present a problem similar to OP should i decide to switch suppliers.
Formal complaint will be sent to try and bottom this out ASAP.
Could any other Octopus customers on TOU tariffs check to see if this is widespread please?

Pat38493

WBCPB said:

I have just checked my 3 registers and Octopus seem to be using both RO1 + RO2 since i rejoined in April this year, where as previously ALL usage was on RO1, so this will present a problem similar to OP should i decide to switch suppliers.
Formal complaint will be sent to try and bottom this out ASAP.
Could any other Octopus customers on TOU tariffs check to see if this is widespread please?

Is it actually Octopus doing this on purpose, or is it actually that the previous supplier set the meter up to do this and Octopus has not reverted it back to use one register?  

To be honest I suspect that in my case, if the smart meter half hourly readings had been working at the time the account was reconciled, they probably would have just used those - in the original starting bill they overrode my local reading with the R01 reading.  It may be that it was only because the smart meter had also failed and they could not get the half hourly data that the issue arose.

Edit - is it also possible that they use R01 and R02 if they believe that you have an (British Gas?) IHD that supports display of correct cost information based on TOU tariffs - at my old house I had a SMETS1 British Gas IHD and at the various times I was using the Go tariff (I tended to switch between Go and Agile) the IHD seemed to be correctly programmed / updated to display the correct information (at least most times although one or two times it displayed correct hour changes but our of date pricing.