Related electricity meters

Scot_39

Troubador2 said:

Thanks QrizB and Scot_39 for your comments. Guess I'm gonna have to drag my RMI into the 21st Century as meter EOL is almost certainly an issue.
On July 8th EDF offered what they caiiled a "Twin Element" smart meter (another name for ALCS?) with 8 hours off-peak times of 00:00 to 02:00, 07:00 to 10:00, 16:00 to 17:00 and 21:00 to 23:00 GMT and charges of 14.745p off peak rate, day rate of 26.307p and standing charge of 51.720p/day. 
This seemed as close as I could get to my RMI so I accepted and agreed to an installation appointment (warned of an inevitable delay).

Then on July 22nd I was told, "Unfortunately, we have uncovered some system issues with Twin Element meter installs meaning they cannot currently be billed correctly. Therefore, we have taken the difficult decision to pause twin element meter installations and make these customers ineligible for the time being."
Back to being offered an E7 meter, which I believe is unsuitable for NSH (and Water Heating) as it would require more electricity to get to the required temperatures as the heaters would cool down further during the 'off' period - resulting in much greater expense.as well as the higher tariffs.

I suggested staying on my RMI until 'Twin Element' smart meters became available but was ignored.
So does anyone know of a supplier currently supplying ALCS (Twin Element?) smart meters before I resume the tedious process of ringing around?

TWIN Element
No that really does sound like EDF were using twin element Correctly to essentially mean 2 meters in one box.

As I posted in the Rosie1001 thread effectively two meters in one device - essentially using the same terminology as Aclara for its sgm-1422-b -  twin independent sensors / circuits in 1 box , so 1 meter with 2 measuring "elements" - one on the live feed and one on the restricted feed. 
So that can measure both the normal load and the restricted load independently the way 2 old seperate meters did in some but not all rts installs.
Wheras standard single element alcs 5 port meters measure the total current so power / energy flow, to both outputs so off peak and peak rates apply to all use.  Again as it worked in many twin rate single meter homes. And normally peak comes with a corresponding premium to offset offpeak.

WHY, in part because of the rates. The fact your off peak rate is close to their e7/e10 rates, but your offered day rate closer to single rate (* if not single rate - se below) than typical their peak e7 pushing 32p or with EDF c5p higher e10 peak rates - which would push 37p.

And suspect although customer services use terms like peak and off peak to you - they actually would in reality with twin element mean non restricted circuit rates  and restricted circuit heating rates.
Unless they were really going to apply the 14.7p rate to both for 8 hrs without a peak premium on the non restricted test of time which - to put it mildly - seems very unlikely.

Now they obviously could bill the old way on old tariffs, so do wonder if it's an automation thing, as in  theory you could manually read the two sets yourself and phone in or post on Web  just as you did before.

(*) In fact looking at their July - Sep pricing see link,  they were probably offering you S West region single rate dd rates on non restricted output 24/7 - so suspect that is your region - and at the 14.745p on off peak vs the tabled 13.374 so 1.4p more for the extra 1 hr more off peak and split timings  and without charging the 32.472p e7 peak rate or higher e8 version 16hrs a day on everything else
(But would on e7 charge both live and restricted - so whole house - at the 13.374 off peak too).

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/2025-06/DM1903-STANDARD-VARIABLE-DEEMED-AND-WELCOME-JULY-RATES.pdf

So was a good offer.

The problem is suppliers needs to understand how to configure and use these more complex meters - get it wrong - and they might say miss the second restricted feed power / energy completely - as the very long spec for aclara gives a description / wording for that second  restricted output measurement element on the 1422b model in the series - being handled by a seperate set of auxiliary load registers.  IF I can get the info, to give clues as to what might ve needed, why cannot EDF - who must be able to talk direct to the supplier - get an exact description ?
Why normal / restricted and two rates any more complex for edf to handle than peak r1 and off peak r2 for a single element e7 meter etc is puzzling.
But maybe I am granting their metering and billing teams more competence and more intelligence to be able to have necessary conversations before rolling them out than they deserve

RollOut Paused
I note they say for now on the roll out being paused not abandoned.  So rather than asking to retain RTS - you could try asking if they will guarantee - and I sipuggest do this in writing or logged chat - come back and fit a twin element  and give you that deal when resolved it's billing issues.

Or as you currently must do, offer to read the meter properly and submit monthly readings until thrybsort out the tech behind getting it right.

PS re ALCS
Alcs =  auxiliary load control switch -  is just the switching of restricted load - a 5 port e7 meter will do that, to switch your hw nsh etc power for 7 hrs overnight  - as aftaid that if like @Rosie1001 offer from edf will afaik be single block overnight  (as it was on Apr 1st on her e10 meter when they got it wrong)

Scot_39

QrizB said:

Troubador2 said:

Back to being offered an E7 meter, which I believe is unsuitable for NSH (and Water Heating)

The vast majority of storage heater customers are already on E7 and content with it. I had storage heaters in my first house, a mid-70s semi with the original heating, and provided I set the imput high enough it would last into the evening.

And once you've got an E7 smart meter, you'll have the option of switching to any of the other smart time-of-use tariffs. Some of these offer longer off-peak periods than E7 does.

(If you're in Scotland, I think E7 offers more than seven hours.)

SP certainly did in past 8.5 hr and iirc there's an 8 hr version somewhere too - as Ofgem excluded 8/8.5 versions as well as standard e7 from their RRMI single rate billing gurantee - but isn't called e7 - whitemeter and maybe all are legacy tariffs these days.

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

Looks like standard  economy 7 it's just 7 hrs these days.

QrizB

Troubador2 said:

QrizB said: And once you've got an E7 smart meter, you'll have the option of switching to any of the other smart time-of-use tariffs. Some of these offer longer off-peak periods than E7 does.

So what's all this about 'Twin Element' and 'ALCS' meters? Are these NOT different from the E7 meter EDF are offering? It's the Smart Time-of-use tariffs I'm after.

Scot_39 has mostly answered this.

Yes, a regular E7 smart meter has a permanently live supply and an ALCS-switched timed supply. The permanently live supply is live all the time (!) while the ALCS-switched supply is only live during the E7 off-peak period.

Typically you'd connect your storage heaters and HW immersion to the ALCS-switched supply.

And a regular E8 smart meter can also be used on a range of different smart tariffs that use the ALCS to charge your storage heaters and HW tank in accordance with the timings associated with those tariffs.

All the talk about twin-element meters is a way of replicating your legacy supply. This might* however limit your ability to move to other smart tariffs in future; it's potentially a technological dead end.

(* Or it might not; twin-element meters are quite rare and I don't think we've heard from anyone who has one and has them tried to switch supplier or tariff )

Scot_39

QrizB said:

Troubador2 said:

QrizB said: And once you've got an E7 smart meter, you'll have the option of switching to any of the other smart time-of-use tariffs. Some of these offer longer off-peak periods than E7 does.

So what's all this about 'Twin Element' and 'ALCS' meters? Are these NOT different from the E7 meter EDF are offering? It's the Smart Time-of-use tariffs I'm after.

Scot_39 has mostly answered this.

Yes, a regular E7 smart meter has a permanently live supply and an ALCS-switched timed supply. The permanently live supply is live all the time (!) while the ALCS-switched supply is only live during the E7 off-peak period.

Typically you'd connect your storage heaters and HW immersion to the ALCS-switched supply.

And a regular E8 smart meter can also be used on a range of different smart tariffs that use the ALCS to charge your storage heaters and HW tank in accordance with the timings associated with those tariffs.

All the talk about twin-element meters is a way of replicating your legacy supply. This might* however limit your ability to move to other smart tariffs in future; it's potentially a technological dead end.

(* Or it might not; twin-element meters are quite rare and I don't think we've heard from anyone who has one and has them tried to switch supplier or tariff )

E7 meter

Regular E7 meter with ALCS that the OP needs - but you dont need ALCS in many modern home / flat installs - to have E7 - seen new or recent build modern flats on E7 just for HW with timer for instance in past.

I used the Aclara SGM-1422-B as my example as I have seen at least one post here of one actually installed - but not directly by the customer in that case.

As ldhund posted from the manual one assumes - later in the same thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81342051/#Comment_81342051

So even if it was 1423 - it would still be two element.  As its the 2 in 22 / 23 - number of elements in that series convention (well upto the 1422 anyway).

That from one of the ones Rosie1001 copied in examples from another forum or whats app style group of those who are having issues - or had issues with their RTS replacements.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81339708/#Comment_81339708

Just a few days before she had her EDMI ES12-B installed.

it i soe was the top end of the original single phase SGM-1400 series - which starts with a basic 4 port - then adds aux or 5 port ALCS control or both irrc.

Troubador2

QrizB Said: Yes, a regular E7 smart meter has a permanently live supply and an ALCS-switched timed supply. The permanently live supply is live all the time (!) while the ALCS-switched supply is only live during the E7 off-peak period.

Typically you'd connect your storage heaters and HW immersion to the ALCS-switched supply.

So... this is what I need while I wait for the Twin Element meter roll-out (Ha Ha!).
Presumably I ask for a SMETS2 E7 meter with NSH and HW immersion controlled by the ALCS and this would maintain my two separate circuits.
So I guess that when the ALCS switches on the restricted circuit, the live feed is also on the off-peak rate, right?

Also,are E7 'day rate' tariffs allowed to exceed the price cap? You mention a '32.472p e7 peak rate'. EDF 's price list gives a 33.472p e7 rate (yes I'm in the S.West) - this exceeds the price cap for any region and any payment method.

Thank you both so much for your help - I understand a lot more than I did and feel I'm in a stronger position to deal with EDF. 

Scot_39

Yes you do need a "temporary" e7 meter with alcs.

Yes the off peak rates will be charged on both circuits, typically (but not always in past) on rate 2 register, purely by time.

And no they dont exceed the price cap by being over c26p for peak rate.

As its a complex calculation, but 

The all electric profile class 2 multirate cap (mostly e7 these days) price cap is a total price per region and a seperate nil rate (standing charge pa) per region ex vat.

Ofgem calculate it on the presumption of c42% of total consumption in the off peak period for e7, but crucially dont actually fix the off peak and peak rates individually.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2025-05/Energy price cap levels 1 July to 30 September 2025_0.pdf

You could say back calculate an average price from that total and nil rare price but its just a guide, and it isn't the same as the single rate price as tge differential between average and single rate can vary by 2-3p between cap periods.

As long as 4200kWh of energy at that split cost less than the total price cap annually - the suppliers are complying with the cap. 
Note the energy price cap tables as set for ssupplierslike July ex above is not the same as the retail cap we see in the media and on Ofgem pricing for consumers at their regularly - so currently lower - revised tdcvs. 

But its entirely up to suppliers how they balance tge two rates - peak and off peak.  And that will often change both seasonally and region by region - sometimes by large amounts at EDF in past and at others now - see fuse ex below..

So if you end up never getting back to your twin element meter, stuck on e7.

For very high offpeak users - some are in the 90% plus - are best looking for cheaper off peak rates.

Sone might set them flat or nearly flat.  Like say 23p 28 p vs 25-6p ave 

EDF are fairly middling of many large suppliers at their c14p c 32p balance point vs single rate c 26p.  Plus minus large regional variations at times in past(*)

I saw a user post fuse rates in some regions they are currently more like 5.5-6p off peak vs 39p peak in some regions but c12p vs 33p so more like big suppliers like edf in another.  

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81566298/#Comment_81566298

Others get good rates for high off peak use at other challengers like UW etc. 

Its a tariff thats not only often really worth shopping around on. But one that could need regular review.
(*) As during crisis peak recovery EDF dropped night rates sub 10p in a few regions, but these bounced back c6p just months later in some cases and iirc in only one - was it EM or SE i cannot remember ? - long enough for a fix at that rate to become available. Which at least one regular forumite managed to secure before it to bounced back to the then c15p norm.

Troubador2

I think I'll wait till EDF install a suitable E7 meter (it'll probably take an age) before I start shopping around for the cheapest tariffs. Good to know you CAN get fixed rate tariffs on E7.
Thanks again.