Related electricity meters

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Related electric meter unable to switch online - how to fix?.

Troubador2

Does anyone know which electricity suppliers are still serving related electricity meters, also known as RMI (restricted meter infrastructure) I believe.
I've got two meters, two MPANS and a time switch similar to the photos above. The time switch (not RTS) controls the dedicated (hot water & storage heaters) off-peak meter (on Standard Variable Off-peak tariff) -  My "domestic" meter is a Smart meter, for which I've been able to get various fixed tariffs over the years.
EDF have supplied this system with no problems since 2017 and I'd like to continue but from July 1st they are discontinuing off-peak rates - in order to 'simplify' their operations!
Is this allowable? Thought suppliers were obliged to supply RMIs - it's only Radio Tele-Switch meters that are being discontinued.
After much back and forth, they're offering an E7 meter at much higher rates. Meanwhile, they're supplying my "off-peak" meter at the full Standard Variable tariff. 
Any help from others' experiencing or having experienced this problem?

QrizB

Troubador2 said:

After much back and forth, they're offering an E7 meter at much higher rates. Meanwhile, they're supplying my "off-peak" meter at the full Standard Variable tariff. 
Any help from others' experiencing or having experienced this problem?

You've already got storage heaters, so I suspect your best option will be to get EDF to remove your heat-only meter, transfer the circuits it supplies over to your smart meter and move to Economy 7 or another ALCS-switched multi-rate tariff.

MSE_Stephen

@Troubador2 We've split this into a new thread for you.

Scot_39

Copied this one / as not moved this one myself as was a reply to @Troubador2 in the other thread - not moved across

Was entered 25th July c3:30pm - in the orginal thread - so not new new.

Two MPANs will probably fail on line quote checks I suspect these days - especially if you also have a non standard tariff / off peak times applied to them - but even then many will reject (see the @Rosie1001 example below - another messed around EDF customer - Octopus wouldnt quote her with her 2 MPANs - see (*) below)

Have you actually tried phoning any of them and asking ?

Suppliers at least were at one stage allowed to drop any tariff they want to - apart from the standard deemed tariffs - in one sense.  There is guidance from Ofgem that says they have to offer something suitable for RTS relpacements iirc.

I lost my old EMEB Heatwise RTS then supplied by EOn - and given the option of SR or E10 only - to replace it around 10 years ago.  At the time even SR would have been functional - all devices would have power - subject to any user meter side modifications to make them so which they warned would likley be required -- so in line with Ofgem rules. 

Neither were the same cost (E10 worked out cheaper than SR for my mix - but it was still over 25% more expensive). 

Nothing to do with meter EOL or BBC LW radio mast switch off for RTS signals - just as part of an EOn "tariff simplification" exercise (thats the old EOn - not EOn Next offspring c2020/21).

[IIRC there was talk even specific permission to drop RTS legacy tariffs in their entirety - even support for those still on legacy RTS - by then in theory by plans at the time all would have had date to switch offers - so arguably those refusing meter switches - was suggested in the words of one post here - from 1st July - under the old 30th June deadline for RTS.]

And 2 meter system with mechanical time switches - likely to be old - and like the OP - if not at - soon approaching calibration lifetime.

The real flexibility of choice solution is to switch to a smart meter.  And once that is reflected on meter databse - so make sure EDF do it properly (*) and you'll probably want that ASAP to sort something better before winter heating time arrives if use electric heating.

If you dont have one now - its very likely you will have on eimposed on you soon anyway - they simply aren't offering alternatives - and don't have to under Ofgem rules for EOL metering.

That hopefully would then include most suppliers offering E7 (or Octupus SNUG for NSH - the first modern tariff designed for them and smets2 smart meters) - on a smart meter at most suppliers - if you need the restricted feed by meter control to say HW immersion and NSH systems without independent of meter timer switches.

If you have your own timers - other TOU tariffs might provide an even better deal.

Another couple of user posts here are having issues around old RTS and new E7 / E10.  

@Rosie1001 - who managed to get E10 on her new smart meter - c4 months ago in Mar, lose it for 1-2 weeks again in April - has had the single rate only letter with July 1st date - and an actual single rate bill for part of the month - and now being offered IIRC at best in latest mention of her tariffs E7 on her 4 month old metering.

If thats the best EDF offer - she is looking to move - bt she already has her "flexible choices" kit in place - her new smart meter.  

(*) Except even then it turns out not that simple - as EDF havent yet organised the removal of her old 2nd MPAN on nationwide database (managed by a third party but they have to make the request) - so like you she cannot easily switch.  But hopefully shes only days / weeks away fro that being fixed.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81552313/#Comment_81552313

You might want to have a read of some of the discussions around her issue - and some others here.

The whole things a mess - obviously suppliers are culpable - but I also blame Ofgem for not setting tighter rules for the million plus on RTS and other legacy metering systems.

Troubador2

Thanks QrizB and Scot_39 for your comments. Guess I'm gonna have to drag my RMI into the 21st Century as meter EOL is almost certainly an issue.
On July 8th EDF offered what they caiiled a "Twin Element" smart meter (another name for ALCS?) with 8 hours off-peak times of 00:00 to 02:00, 07:00 to 10:00, 16:00 to 17:00 and 21:00 to 23:00 GMT and charges of 14.745p off peak rate, day rate of 26.307p and standing charge of 51.720p/day. 
This seemed as close as I could get to my RMI so I accepted and agreed to an installation appointment (warned of an inevitable delay).

Then on July 22nd I was told, "Unfortunately, we have uncovered some system issues with Twin Element meter installs meaning they cannot currently be billed correctly. Therefore, we have taken the difficult decision to pause twin element meter installations and make these customers ineligible for the time being."
Back to being offered an E7 meter, which I believe is unsuitable for NSH (and Water Heating) as it would require more electricity to get to the required temperatures as the heaters would cool down further during the 'off' period - resulting in much greater expense.as well as the higher tariffs.

I suggested staying on my RMI until 'Twin Element' smart meters became available but was ignored.
So does anyone know of a supplier currently supplying ALCS (Twin Element?) smart meters before I resume the tedious process of ringing around?

Troubador2

Don't know why some of my text appears as 'nul' hyperlinks!?

WiserMiser

Troubador2 said:

Don't know why some of my text appears as 'nul' hyperlinks!?

Probably because you're a newbie.  To deter spammers, you have to have been signed up for a few weeks and/or made several posts.

WiserMiser

Troubador2 said:

Back to being offered an E7 meter, which I believe is unsuitable for NSH (and Water Heating) as it would require more electricity to get to the required temperatures as the heaters would cool down further during the 'off' period - resulting in much greater expense.as well as the higher tariffs.

That was true for some of the original NSHs back in the 70s which were small and poorly insulated.  Low rate supply times were much longer, E10, E12, E15 etc.  The original tariff was the White Meter which gave eight hours overnight; E7 came along a bit later.

But electricity was cheap as chips then, so people weren't too bothered.  They liked it being warm if they had to get up in the night, and it was unusual for no-one to be at home during the day.

If you have modern High Heat Retention NSHs they'll be fine on E7 if correctly programmed, ditto water heating.  However, be extremely careful if using only one supply cable and relying on an internal timer to mimic the meter's switching times.  Some areas have a two hour gap charged at peak rate.  The only way to be sure is to treat the alleged times as a guide: you have to watch the meter switch over and back again to make sure you're not being overcharged.

QrizB

Troubador2 said:

Back to being offered an E7 meter, which I believe is unsuitable for NSH (and Water Heating)

The vast majority of storage heater customers are already on E7 and content with it. I had storage heaters in my first house, a mid-70s semi with the original heating, and provided I set the imput high enough it would last into the evening.

And once you've got an E7 smart meter, you'll have the option of switching to any of the other smart time-of-use tariffs. Some of these offer longer off-peak periods than E7 does.

(If you're in Scotland, I think E7 offers more than seven hours.)

Troubador2

QrizB said: And once you've got an E7 smart meter, you'll have the option of switching to any of the other smart time-of-use tariffs. Some of these offer longer off-peak periods than E7 does.

So what's all this about 'Twin Element' and 'ALCS' meters? Are these NOT different from the E7 meter EDF are offering? It's the Smart Time-of-use tariffs I'm after.