Rights Re Will and Pension

KIWI56

Hi. A very old friend of my husband and his family died approx 18 months ago. He left a Will stating my husband and brother should be given the money from his pension split 3 ways between a female relative and the 2 men.(hubby and his brother nursed him not knowing  they would be left anything)We have been waiting ages to hear from the solicitor who then said that the pension was outside of the Will so it all was to go to female relative. The solicitor was the one that drafted the will at the deceased deathbed and we understand that the money has already been paid out. Surely the solicitor (who is executing)would have known this while drafting the will, and should have advised our dear friend and advised the Pension provider of amendments to nominees.  the Will should have been taken into consideration as it was only a couple of days before his death Thank you if anyone  could advise please? 

YBR

I'm no expert, but I do understand that pensions are generally outside the estate of someone who died, and are passed on at the discretion of the pension trustees, who take into account any nominees that are registered with them. Whether they might take into account a will as a subsequent intention, I don't know, and they may not have ever seen it. Bequests of assets that are no longer part of the estate simply fail, I think.

If the will was done (possibly in a hurry?) shortly before death, the solicitor may not have known the details of the pension scheme. Do you know the sum involved? It's probably not worth chasing as it's unlikely you'll win against a solicitor and your husband and brother did not nurse their old friend expecting an inheritance from it. I'd suggest they try to grieve with the best memories and not create bitter ones, if you see what I mean.

KIWI56

Thank you for your response.  I think it's the principal of the whole thing not the money.  Just seems it was so pointless putting it in a will if it can't be amended.

bobster2

KIWI56 said:

Hi. A very old friend of my husband and his family died approx 18 months ago. He left a Will stating my husband and brother should be given the money from his pension split 3 ways between a female relative and the 2 men.(hubby and his brother nursed him not knowing  they would be left anything)We have been waiting ages to hear from the solicitor who then said that the pension was outside of the Will so it all was to go to female relative. The solicitor was the one that drafted the will at the deceased deathbed and we understand that the money has already been paid out. Surely the solicitor (who is executing)would have known this while drafting the will, and should have advised our dear friend and advised the Pension provider of amendments to nominees.  the Will should have been taken into consideration as it was only a couple of days before his death Thank you if anyone  could advise please? 

Unfortunately, sounds like if the deceased wanted to do this they would have needed to complete a new "expression of wishes" form with the pension provider nominating beneficiaries.

As a previous poster said - the pension benefits would be outside the estate - so their distribution would not be something that could be set out in a will.

Yes - the solicitor should really have known this - unless perhaps there was a misunderstanding about the nature of the pension?

mta999

Yes pensions are outside the will and are normally passed on after death by whatever expression of wishes the pensioner has left with the trustees

It is normally at the absolute discretion of the trustees what happens although of course tthy will take into account any wishes

the will is completely different

Of course once pensions are subject to inheritance tax into 2027 there will be a whole can of worms as to who pays the inheritance tax on the pension which will be left outside the will and paid gross and may in some cases use up a loss or all of the IHT allowance

elsien

I think it would’ve been up to the person and solicitor to advise the pension company of the requested changes. I can’t see that that really forms part of the solicitor’s remit. 

NorthYorkie

Yes pension funds are usually distributed at the trustees' discretion, usually taking into account a 'letter of wishes' by the deceased. However, can you provide the exact wording of the will on this matter?

Baldytyke88

KIWI56 said:

The Will should have been taken into consideration as it was only a couple of days before his death  

When making changes to a will, it's important to ensure the changes are clear and unambiguous to avoid potential disputes later.

Was the solicitor and the correct witnesses present etc. It does sound like it was more complicated than just changing a will. In the space of a couple of days, there would not have been enough time to inform the pension companies.

Keep_pedalling

Had this not been a deathbed will more time would have been available to get everything sorted. Not everything in a will is enforceable, and as the pension was out of the estate then this was one of those clauses that is no more than a wish. Although most pensions fall out of the holder’s estate not all do, also if the testator had lodged no expression of wishes form with the trustees they would probably have distributed the pension as per the wishes expressed in the will.

it was also a possibility that having seen the will the relative may have agreed to split the pension 3 ways (not everyone is selfish and greedy) 

msb1234

Keep_pedalling said:

Had this not been a deathbed will more time would have been available to get everything sorted. Not everything in a will is enforceable, and as the pension was out of the estate then this was one of those clauses that is no more than a wish. Although most pensions fall out of the holder’s estate not all do, also if the testator had lodged no expression of wishes form with the trustees they would probably have distributed the pension as per the wishes expressed in the will.

it was also a possibility that having seen the will the relative may have agreed to split the pension 3 ways (not everyone is selfish and greedy) 

Blimey, that’s a bit of a stretch saying the relative is selfish and greedy! We know nothing of this relative other than she’s female, nor do we know what amount of money was left in the pension pot. Neither do we know if she even has seen the will and therefore doesn’t know about the brothers!

Section62

msb1234 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Had this not been a deathbed will more time would have been available to get everything sorted. Not everything in a will is enforceable, and as the pension was out of the estate then this was one of those clauses that is no more than a wish. Although most pensions fall out of the holder’s estate not all do, also if the testator had lodged no expression of wishes form with the trustees they would probably have distributed the pension as per the wishes expressed in the will.

it was also a possibility that having seen the will the relative may have agreed to split the pension 3 ways (not everyone is selfish and greedy) 

Blimey, that’s a bit of a stretch saying the relative is selfish and greedy! We know nothing of this relative other than she’s female, nor do we know what amount of money was left in the pension pot. Neither do we know if she even has seen the will and therefore doesn’t know about the brothers!

I think you are reading something into Keep_pedalling's post which isn't there.

Many people on getting a windfall would keep it all themselves.  What Keep_pedalling is saying - correctly - is that doesn't apply to everyone, many people will think of others and consider sharing the benefit.

What I understood Keep_pedalling to mean is that we shouldn't assume the female relative decided to keep the pension all to herself - exactly the same point you are making.

For context, where pension trustees have discretion, they will contact nominated beneficiaries and also other persons who might need to be considered as possible beneficiaries. The latter would normally be family members/dependents rather than friends.  All potential beneficiaries would typically be asked about their own position, as well as their view on how the pension should be divided.  Keep_pedalling's point is that if the female relative had seen the will she could have told the pension trustees that the pension should be split three ways.  But we don't know whether the female relative was aware of the deceased's wishes, we don't know what she told the pension trustees, and we don't know what was on the current nomination form the trustees held.